15-01-2003 09:51									#1
	gays in the military? Get a bigger avatar today!

http://www.gay.com/news/article.html?2003/01/07/2

???? !!!!! Someone's telling!
I dunno how I feel about it, but a group of people forming in the military... in order to tell people that they're gay? Even though I think it's a great idea, aren't they just asking for trouble?

	15-01-2003 09:55									#2
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Forget that! Look at this:

http://www.gay.com/news/article.html?2003/01/07/3

	15-01-2003 12:46									#4
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If only we could see their faces.

	15-01-2003 23:47									#6
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If we didn't have gays in the military who would man the submarine fleet?

*waits for GP*

	15-01-2003 23:55									#7
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*erases cookies *

	16-01-2003 00:24									#8
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Hmmm how about kamikaze pilots .

	16-01-2003 00:40									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Mattaba Hmmm how about kamikaze pilots .

Only if you heteros are solely assigned to minesweeper duty. Sorry, no electronic detectors...you have to go by feel...

	16-01-2003 00:51									#10
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the military needs more than minesweepers, and we do constitute the majority, and all.

	16-01-2003 01:03									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel the military needs more than minesweepers, and we do constitute the majority, and all.

That's where the women come in. They can do all the combat stuff.

	16-01-2003 01:07									#12
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I don't think gays in military is a problem.. It's a problem if we make it a problem but come on. Gay men are as good soldiers as straight men. If straight guys have problems that there are few gay men, well it's really their problem, isn't it?
Who cares what ones sexual preference is. Romantic relationships are not allowed in miltiary anyway. So it's not like they're having sex everytime they get the opportunity. Now, if this is a problem about showers, maybe we should ban gay people from public pools too .

	16-01-2003 01:11									#13
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I couldn't agree more. If there are women in the military, why not gay men? Besides, there is the entire "gay men are very dangerous warriors" myth that we could scare people with.

	16-01-2003 01:14									#14
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Azazel, well I don't know if it's only myth, history has lots of examples of good gay warriors.

And yes, there are women now too, and even if they're in different barracks etc, there's bound to happen some flirting etc. Even if it's not allowed. So why not gay men, I think they're not interested on teasing straight men and looking for a chance to rape them.

	16-01-2003 01:18									#15
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So long as the military is at least consistent, I'd be happier. But to deny gays the ability to serve of their own volition but then say they can be drafted in a time of war is utter hypocrisy. I would never serve an organization that acted with such blatant two-facedness. They either accept gays as soldiers in all times, or they can just forget about using us as cannon fodder. Screw them!

*******s!

	16-01-2003 01:22									#16
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And as for women, I did my service with some women and had to train few privates that were women. Now, they were as good as men, some better than the average guy. Sure, some of them likes to cry when we need to give little more motivation or stuff like that, but majority was good. Women didn't seem to have the bad side of some men, slacking. THey didn't avoid doing stuff that much, they did what they were told to do, and didn't bring their own opinions, like some men wanted to do. Of course that led to more motivation activity and made some women cry more, but hey, that's life.

But the tough ones, let me tell you, I'd go to fight with some of them any time. Sure, they're smaller, and lack some strength, but there are many things that they can do as good as men, or even better.

Now I can't see what there is in the army, that gay men can't do.

Only thing is, I wouldn't get so much women to combat, since I believe it takes the morale of the men down if they get to see them die much, maybe some men feel they need to do some rescuing and stuff like that. That is problem in men though, not in women, so it's our fault.

	16-01-2003 01:25									#17
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And you know who the biggest problems was? It was the whining men. Women didn't whine so much, or at least they did get it the first time when told to shut up.
They submitted to the will of trainers much easier, and tried harder. And they didn't try any silent protesting, talking **** behind your back, and stuff like you could expect from women. That was from men!

	16-01-2003 01:27									#18
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Stand up comic I recently saw:

"I'm all for gays in the military! Hell, if we're in a war, I'd like to know that the guy watching my ass found it cute and actually had a vested interest in keeping it safe."

	16-01-2003 01:29									#19
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quote: Azazel, well I don't know if it's only myth, history has lots of examples of good gay warriors.

and straight ones, as well. Basically, this has nothing to do with that.

Boris Godunov: couldn't agree more.

women in combat: my only reservations that there should be the same physical and mental criteria to men and women in all jobs, including the military. Women having period might cause a problem, but I seriously don't know the exact physical implication ( ignorance is bliss. ).

	16-01-2003 01:43									#20
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azazel, I agree with you. Most women can't meet tough requirements for combat, so they're automatically out, they shouldn't get any help with it. If they can do it, pass the requirements, then sure.

Yeah, it doesn't make any difference in combat skills if someone is gay or not.

	16-01-2003 01:53									#21
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Pekka

	16-01-2003 01:55									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka I don't think gays in military is a problem.. It's a problem if we make it a problem but come on.

I think that's what they're trying to prevent

	16-01-2003 01:56									#23
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Okay, this agreement and lovefest is making me queasy. Someone get Boddingtons in here so we can yell at a neanderthal.

	16-01-2003 02:04									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Now I can't see what there is in the army, that gay men can't do.

I agree as well... though I chose civil service instead of the army, my boyfriend was in the army and was out to all the people serving with him. Since he doesn't resemble the negative gay stereotype, he had no trouble there and he actually had fun on the expense of homophobic straight guys, such as jokingly harassing some of them As far as I have understood, he was an excellent soldier, so at least the Finnish army should have absolutely no problem with openly gay people.

	16-01-2003 02:12									#25
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I must admit, that I personally have problems with the negative gay stereotype, and the 'infant provocateur' types. but as long as it doesn't offend anyone, I'll tolerate. that's what tolerance is all about.

My general position on gayness:

It's not right, but It's ok. I wouldn't like my kid to be gay, but I wouldn't be terribly upset if he was. It's like smoking, in many ways. we all know smoking is bad, but do we hate smokers? Do we constantly tell them to stop smoking (unless it's a public place, and you don't want to be passive).It's very similar, only a bigger aspect of the individual's life.

	16-01-2003 02:19									#26
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quote: Okay, this agreement and lovefest is making me queasy. Someone get Boddingtons in here so we can yell at a neanderthal.

-Arrian

	16-01-2003 02:21									#27
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it is a lot like smoking...their mouths are constantly on those dirty fags...

	16-01-2003 02:27									#28
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I want to see is my pov acceptable by gay people. Yes, boris I am talking about you.

	16-01-2003 02:28									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel It's not right, but It's ok. I wouldn't like my kid to be gay, but I wouldn't be terribly upset if he was.

Well, what do you mean by "not right?" I would ascribe to the same thing provided by that, you meant in the same way that being heterosexual isn't "right," it just IS. There is no right or wrong about it.

I bristle at it being compared to smoking, however, as smoking creates a multitude of ills inherent to the act that makes it negative both for the participant and the innocent bystander. Homosexuality carries no inherent problem of that kind. Then there's the whole point that smoking isn't comparably a part of who anyone is. Anyone can choose to smoke or not.

Were your kid to be gay, but it was in a world were homosexuality wasn't thought of any differently than heterosexuality and there was absolutely no stigma attached to it, would you feel the same way? In other words, would your dislike come from the type of life you knew they would leave (being subjected to bigotry and such), or because of something you deem inherently wrong with homosexuality?

	16-01-2003 02:40									#30
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I think it would take some getting used to, but I'd be 100% ok with my child after the initial shock if they turned out to be homosexual.

A friend of mine came up with an interesting way to break it to her parents that she was a lesbian...she and her long time best friend (guy) sat on the couch and she said "mom, dad, i have something very important to tell you" and held his hand...

"I'm Pregnant"

Mom and Dad are shocked since the two are not married.

"no no I'm just kidding! I'm only gay..."

She said it worked for about a minute...then they gave her the silent treatment, and wrote her a letter at school telling her that she was disowned and they were embarrassed and had no daughter...