15-01-2003 18:25									#1
	Location of our fourth city Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

The settler in Legopolis will be finished on the next turn. While we actually have one more turn to make the decision (sending the settler along the road across the Plastico River either way will be ok), we have to decide where to send him then. So, have a look at the discussion in The Lego Growth Plan and make up your mind. I will use the tentative city names from my city placement proposal post, make sure you know which one is which... It would be great if you can briefly comment on your choice plus add your preferences for the future production of Legopolis and Jackson.

	15-01-2003 18:31									#2
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Voted for the Panama site. Mostly because of if we have one more pretty productive city, we will be able to build a settler in Legopolis or Jackson from time to time. Red Bricks would not be that productive with all that jungle around... plus, Panama will grow more slowly, so let's start growing it ASAP...

Legopolis to build a Merc.
Jackson to build a Settler.

The Jackson settler should found Red Bricks then.

	15-01-2003 18:48									#3
	Re: Location of our fourth city Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by vondrack While we actually have one more turn to make the decision (sending the settler along the road across the Plastico River either way will be ok),

What are you talking about? Either I'm a complete idiot or you are miscalculating something, but how can we have one more turn when Panama and Red Bricks/Forkmouth are in complete different directions?? For Panama the settler would move NW while for RedBricks/Forkmouth: SE-S; or ...?

	15-01-2003 18:53									#4
	Re: Re: Location of our fourth city Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius What are you talking about? Either I'm a complete idiot or you are miscalculating something, but how can we have one more turn when Panama and Red Bricks/Forkmouth are in complete different directions?? For Panama the settler would move NW while for RedBricks/Forkmouth: SE-S; or ...?

Sorry to say that you... errr...
The trick is that whatever direction we cross the river in (stopping on the other bank), we will be able to move one more tile in the direction we eventually choose on the next turn, thanks to the road...

	15-01-2003 19:04									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hmmm, I still don't believe you, but this is merely because I don't want to accept that I'm a complete idiot Maybe I'm not complete, yet

	15-01-2003 19:33									#6
	Remove this text

I'm at home now and I've tested it.

	15-01-2003 19:35									#7
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I voted for Forkmouth because
a) the site is awesome
b) we don't have a worker now to improve Panama, and without some irrigations and mines there it doesn't have much of a potential.

If we build Panama with the Jackson settler, the worker that is working near Jackson now could also move toward Panama and improve it.

quote: Originally posted by vondrack Legopolis to build a Merc. Jackson to build a Settler.

I agree with these.

	15-01-2003 20:39									#8
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I also voted for Forksmouth. The great location out weighs the extra C&W. We need to start developing this site so it will be a major producer in the future.

	15-01-2003 20:58									#9
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Voted for Forkmouth. Panama is a more strategic site in my mind, and I don't think we need it quite yet. Forkmouth holds a lot of potential, though we are going to have to pour some workers into getting the lands prepped.

	15-01-2003 21:08									#10
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I must say that I am surprised by how the vote progresses... I expected a pretty tight tie between Panama and Red Bricks... Kloreep or Tiberius, would you be so kind and find out what the levels of waste will be for Forkmouth (using your simulators)? I mean, how many shields will be wasted for 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 shields produced? Preferrably for both unconnected and connected city, please. Thanks.

	15-01-2003 22:04									#11
	Increase the size of your Attachments

You know what; I'm an idiot I was reading the plan incorrectly... what I actually meant to vote for was Red Brick. I think Forkmouth should be the first settler out of Farmerville.

	16-01-2003 03:25									#12
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I'll get that Forkmouth corruption chart. Hang on.

	16-01-2003 03:43									#13
	Increase Your PM Length

Okay, here it is. I'm afraid there isn't much difference even with a road connection.

Forkmouth Unconnected
Shields Gathered (before corruption)	Shields Produced (after corruption)
1	1
2	1
3	2
4	2
5	3
6	3
7	4
8	4
9	5

Forkmouth Connected
Shields Gathered (before corruption)	Shields Produced (after corruption)
1	1
2	1
3	2
4	2
5	3
6	4
7	4
8	5
9	5

I vote Panama. Forkmouth is too uncorrupted and too far away, and Red Bricks would need a worker just as much as Panama.

Edit: Strikeout. Forkmouth is corrupted, hence my voting against it.

Last edited by Kloreep on 16-01-2003 at 03:48

	16-01-2003 03:54									#14
	Got spare money?

I apologize, I wanted to make a table, but it's too late and I'm too tired.

Legend:
p=production, w=waste (real production=rp=p-w)
g=commerce, c=corruption (real gold=rg=g-c)
f=Food

The facts:

Panama
1. unconnected, unimproved

size1: p3, w1, rp=2, g2, c0, rg=2, f4
size2: p4, w1, rp=3, g3, c1, rg=2, f5
size3: p5, w1, rp=4, g4, c1, rg=3, f6

2. unconnected, improved (3 roads, one irrigated plain, one mined hill)
size3: p6, w1, rp=5, g5, c2, rg=3, f7

3. connected, improved
size3: p6, w1, rp=5, g5, c1, rg=4, f7

Forkmouth
1. unconnected, unimproved

size1: p3, w2, rp=1, g2, c1, rg=1, f4
size2: p4, w2, rp=2, g3, c2, rg=1, f6
size3: p5, w3, rp=2, g4, c2, rg=2, f8

2. unconnected, improved (3 roads, two mined bonus grasslands)
size3: p7, w4, rp=3, g7, c4, rg=3, f8

3. connected, improved
size3: p7, w3, rp=4, g7, c3, rg=4, f8

This might be somehow difficult to read, but a few conclusion:
- Forkmouth is obviously much more corrupted than Panama, connected or not
- Panama must be worked ASAP; even so it can't really grow beyond size4 without a temple (for one more irrigated plains), but with 2 mined hills it can a good site for the Great Lighthouse, for example
- Panama grows slower than FM but produces things faster (due to the lower corruption+waste); thus it can't be a settler farm, but can be a production center.

In my only long simulation (the others were only pre-prepared test scenarios) I founded Forkmouth first and Panama with Jackson's settler. The advantage was that the worker, after finishing his work near Jackson, has moved to work Panama in time to connect it very quickly to Legopolis, and the irrigation was also ready very fast, alllowing it to grow faster. One more observation from my testgame: we will need workers ASAP. Shortly we will have 5 cities, they must be connected and improved, so ...

Seeing these results, maybe it'd be better to choose Panama as our next city.

" Must ... go ... sleep"
* Tiberius crawls to bed *

Last edited by Tiberius on 16-01-2003 at 04:06

	16-01-2003 04:00									#15
	Tired of ads?

Oops, I didn't see Kloreep's table. I'm curious if the results are the same. Anyway, his conclusion seems to be the same.

	16-01-2003 07:53									#16
	Inflate your Upload Space

I voted Panama.

Forkmouth has corruption problems at the moment and RedBricks will need a worker immediately as it would only have grassland no shield squares to use (as well as having a lot of jungle too).

Panama, while not being as good long-term as either of those two, is vital now due to the need for a western port, particularly due to that landmass to the west of us (especially as I also suspect that it may contain the Vox civ). It will also have very good shield production early on due to the game square.