16-01-2003 05:18									#1
	GDP, M&A, EBITDA, P/E, NASDAQ, Econo-thread Part 13 Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

As Super Sten says, keep the money movin', boys!

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=68320

	16-01-2003 05:25									#2
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It is all about the Benjamins, indeed.

It does occasionally strike me as funny that two themes that recur in discussions about the US economy are 1) that we are going to do a Japan and implode for ten years and 2) that we could fix our ills by saving more like the Japanese have done for the past 10 years.

(edit: see below for clarification - #2 should read ...fix our ills by saving a lot, similar to the way the Japanese do. Or something like that...)

Viva lost wages.

DanS you might want to link the old thread in your post... as you already did... nevermind!

Last edited by Sten Sture on 17-01-2003 at 03:37

	16-01-2003 06:13									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Sten Sture ...that we could fix our ills by saving more like the Japanese have done for the past 10 years.

Please, please, please check the data before posting such nonsense!

Japan's household savings rate:

1985: 18.5%
1990: 13.4%
1995: 11.9%
2000: 10.3%

Japan's Gross National Savings rate:

1985: 32.0%
1990: 33.5%
1995: 29.6%
2000: 27.7%


Source: OECD

	16-01-2003 06:38									#4
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Hey people, standard procedure for starting a new econ-thread is that you link to the old one from the new one, AND vice versa.

Anyway, my last post in the previous edition (regarding death penalty vs life sentence):

Well let's say how much either of them cost on average across all states. Are there any stats about that?

I recall a figure of $2 million for a death penalty procedure and an annual cost of $60.000 for a normal prisoner. Would that be a fairly correct figure?

	16-01-2003 06:43									#5
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quote: Originally posted by el freako Please, please, please check the data before posting such nonsense! Japan's household savings rate: 1985: 18.5% 1990: 13.4% 1995: 11.9% 2000: 10.3% Gross National Savings rate: 1985: 32.0% 1990: 33.5% 1995: 29.6% 2000: 27.7% Source: OECD

Could you spell out your point? What are you comparing the figures to? Are both Japan? What level is high or low and why?

	16-01-2003 06:47									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Colon Hey people, standard procedure for starting a new econ-thread is that you link to the old one from the new one, AND vice versa.

Gosh I don't know we had such extensive procedures...

quote: I recall a figure of $2 million for a death penalty procedure and an annual cost of $60.000 for a normal prisoner. Would that be a fairly correct figure?

We've already said we only had a general impression of the claim that the DP is more expensive than life in prison. How can we validate specific numbers!?

	16-01-2003 07:56									#7
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Can't validate the specific numbers. Only to say that I have heard the $2 million figure and haven't heard the $60,000 figure. More like $35,000.

	16-01-2003 08:02									#8
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quote: Hey people, standard procedure for starting a new econ-thread is that you link to the old one from the new one, AND vice versa.

Just be like the Suomi thread and start new threads for no reason and with no links .

quote: I recall a figure of $2 million for a death penalty procedure and an annual cost of $60.000 for a normal prisoner. Would that be a fairly correct figure?

Probably, but there also considerations such as the prisions are already super crowded. The costs of building new prisions would probably help offset the costs of the (seemingly) infinite appeals for Death Row inmates.

	16-01-2003 08:27									#9
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quote: Originally posted by GP Could you spell out your point? What are you comparing the figures to? Are both Japan? What level is high or low and why?

Good grief GP, to spell it out....
My point is that Sten's assertion that Japan has increased it's savings during it's slump is not only erroneous but actually the opposite of what has happened.
Therefore his implication that if the US increased it's saving it would also suffer Japan's fate is also wrong.

Both figures were for Japan (above post edited to show this), and if you can't see that 18% and 32% are higher than 10% and 28% then there is something wrong.

	16-01-2003 09:05									#10
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Well I think what they were referring to is that, even though the Japanese savings rate might have decreased, the American savings rate in comparison has always been far below those rates.


Spend, spend, spend!!!

	16-01-2003 09:23									#11
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quote: Originally posted by GP Gosh I don't know we had such extensive procedures...

Yes of course we have, don't you think it's fun?

But please stop bugging EF with asking for a point. I wouldn't wish anything else than freakster man dropping masses of stats for no particular reason. Interpret them of your own.

	16-01-2003 09:29									#12
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Hi Schokoladenkopf.

	16-01-2003 10:30									#13
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quote: Originally posted by el freako Good grief GP, to spell it out.... My point is that Sten's assertion that Japan has increased it's savings during it's slump is not only erroneous but actually the opposite of what has happened. Therefore his implication that if the US increased it's saving it would also suffer Japan's fate is also wrong. Both figures were for Japan (above post edited to show this), and if you can't see that 18% and 32% are higher than 10% and 28% then there is something wrong.

It's good to make that point specific, because I DON'T think that was what Sten said. Your quote of Sten, "...that we could fix our ills by saving more like the Japanese have done for the past 10 years."

That doesn't say to me that Japan accelerated its savings during the slump. It says that people are criticiszing the US for a GENERAL low rate of savings and suggested we save more which has TRADITONALLY been a characteristic of Japan. Certainly it is the stereotype of Japan. (Not just during the slump...but always!)

	16-01-2003 10:37									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Colon Yes of course we have, don't you think it's fun?

yeah...it's pretty cool.

quote: But please stop bugging EF with asking for a point. I wouldn't wish anything else than freakster man dropping masses of stats for no particular reason. Interpret them of your own.

I have a real anathema to numbers dropped without interpretation and without the specific point made. How do you even now whether his point is the trend over time or the overall level or the comparison of household to national? This bugs me (a) just as a normal straight-thinking human and (b) as someone who has made a few charts and presented a few business analyses, been trained for it, been evaluated on it, etc.

But if ef really thinks that I'm the only thickskull who doesn't understand his point or if he just doesn't care about communicating in general, I will shut up and stop badgering him and let him do it his way.

	16-01-2003 10:40									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Well I think what they were referring to is that, even though the Japanese savings rate might have decreased, the American savings rate in comparison has always been far below those rates.

See I'm not the only thickskull who thought Sten's remark was related to typical Japan/US savings differences. That was where I thought the irony of Sten's remark came from. Not from the recent changes in Japan behavior, but from the danger of us becoming like Japan and thand being urged to emulate a traditional Japanese behavior.

	16-01-2003 10:55									#16
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After looking at El Freako's numbers, I would contend that Japan's savings rate is more of a disadvantage than an advantage.

All that money just sitting there, when it could be invested into economic stimulators like Geisha girls or getting used panties from the vending machine.

	16-01-2003 10:58									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker After looking at El Freako's numbers, I would contend that Japan's savings rate is more of a disadvantage than an advantage. All that money just sitting there, when it could be invested into economic stimulators like Geisha girls or getting used panties from the vending machine.

At least they have a nice "stakeholder" system of playing grab-ass with each other.

	16-01-2003 11:07									#18
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The old thread's body isn't even cold and a new one has been posted.

	16-01-2003 11:09									#19
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quote: Originally posted by GP At least they have a nice "stakeholder" system of playing grab-ass with each other.

	16-01-2003 11:11									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The old thread's body isn't even cold and a new one has been posted.

That's how it works, newbie.

	16-01-2003 13:30									#21
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Sten:

"1) that we are going to do a Japan and implode for ten years and 2) that we could fix our ills by saving more like the Japanese have done for the past 10 years.

Viva lost wages. "

Ted: "All that money just sitting there..."

Funny idea that savings are "lost" demand. What, by chance, funds investment ?

	16-01-2003 14:03									#22
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Capital import !!!

	16-01-2003 14:07									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Saras Capital import !!!

Daaaaaamn right.

	17-01-2003 01:56									#24
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Hmmm... I also thought that Sten was refering to general saving rates. Oh well, I guess I have good company in that belief (I think )

	17-01-2003 02:13									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Hmmm... I also thought that Sten was refering to general saving rates. Oh well, I guess I have good company in that belief (I think )

We can form a club. The "don't understand things like ef does so he ought to explain himself" group.


Anyway, who gave you permission to invade a Roland Stennish thread, whippersnapper?

	17-01-2003 02:18									#26
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I snuck in the side enterance while the bubble was popping .

	17-01-2003 02:23									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I snuck in the side enterance while the bubble was popping .

Sneaky little night owl.

	17-01-2003 02:26									#28
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Yah, and I did it during the day to confuse and confound you (though that may not be so hard ).

	17-01-2003 02:29									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Saras Capital import !!!

Of course!!

Though, to be honest, most companies that I follow like to think that someone is going to spend money and buy their products before borrowing to build more capacity... but that could just be a limited number of data points. Maybe most companies like to borrow money just because it is available.


el freako - I apologize for not making my point in a clear fashion. You are obviously correct that Japan's saving rate has been declining. I was trying to state that some pundits want US citizens to increase their negligible savings so that it is more in line with Japanese savings rates, which have consistently been substantially higher.

Imran - you, of all people, should be able to read my mind. I smack you over the head with my Atlanta Braves hat.

	17-01-2003 02:34									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I snuck in the side enterance while the bubble was popping .

A good thing that you didn't sneak into the Fisher thread (or whatever it was called. I just remember us having two at the same time.) That thing collapsed in one of the restructurings.