17-01-2003 20:04									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Redefining terms is generally frowned upon.

What terms are being redefined?

	17-01-2003 21:07									#92
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Biblical Inerrantists who do NOT believe that the Earth is flat.

And any Christian who argues that God can legitimately commit atrocities because of "original sin" (we are all sinners deserving of death), but who considers it immoral for me to blow his brains out.

	18-01-2003 00:52									#93
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Being a Communist and working for Citibank...

HEY!



they laid me off almost a year ago.

	18-01-2003 01:00									#94
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How about... someone who thinks that a small clump of cells containing human DNA (or an embryo, as they like to be called) should be protected from harm at all costs yet thinks that it's a parent's right to do whatever the hell they want to their children,whether it's chop off parts of their genitals or beat the living hell out of them every day.

	18-01-2003 01:11									#95
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I'm with ya Gibsie. Or even those against stem cell research, but are for health care reform, or want longer, healthier lives.

	18-01-2003 02:29									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie whether it's chop off parts of their genitals or beat the living hell out of them every day.

What pro-life organization anywhere... ever... has stated that these are acceptable?

	18-01-2003 02:31									#97
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"And any Christian who argues that God can legitimately commit atrocities because of "original sin" (we are all sinners deserving of death), but who considers it immoral for me to blow his brains out."

"Did I request thee, Maker, from my clay To mould me man? Did I solicit thee From darkness to promote me?"

Milton, Paradise Lost, also quoted in Frankenstein: the Modern Prometheus by Mary Shelley.

Jack, if you paint a picture, or write a book, are you not also allowed to burn your own book or destroy your painting?

Such as it is with God. Why should he not suddenly destroy what he has made? Why does he put up with us at all?

	18-01-2003 02:34									#98
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So God can murder his own people for whatever reason based on the fact they are his creations, but you don't believe a mother can choose to terminate her pregnancy?

	18-01-2003 02:36									#99
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All they have to say is that the fetus is God's creation, not hers. If you and I are God's handiwork, then inevitably the fetuses we came from were as well.

	18-01-2003 02:42									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Darius871 All they have to say is that the fetus is God's creation, not hers. If you and I are God's handiwork, then inevitably the fetuses we came from were as well.

Perhaps, but that doesn't help him in the other thread, wherein the discussion of a woman's right to abortion is sans God.

	18-01-2003 02:44									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Darius871 What pro-life organization anywhere... ever... has stated that these are acceptable?

Beleive it or not, but someone is capable of holding views all by themselves without having an organisation to back them up.

From my experience, those who most favour beating children and the use of circumcision are traditionalists, which are usually conservatives. Since conservatives have a tendency to oppose abortion, it is not too inconceivable to think that someone (there's that word again!) thinks as I stated.

Of course, you could have easily thought that through with your own brain- don't be afraid to use it, Chief.

	18-01-2003 02:49									#102
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Sorry, your use of hyperbole threw me off. I didn't know by "chopping off parts of their genitals" you meant circumcision (which is done now for medical reasons, not 'traditional' reasons) or that "beat the living hell out of them every day" meant spanking them on occasion when they break a lamp or something. Perhaps if you had been clear...

	18-01-2003 02:50									#103
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Jack's argument here assumes the existence of God, so I can legitimately include God in my response.

Boris, in the other thread, where do I mention God at all?

Darius: I could not have responded to Boris any better.

	18-01-2003 02:54									#104
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Boris, in the other thread, where do I mention God at all?

You didn't, which is why I said "sans God" about the other thread

How can you argue in this thread that a being can destroy his living creations just because he made them, and yet in the other thread argue that a being doesn't have the right to destroy her creation that's inside of her?

	18-01-2003 02:59									#105
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Well if that's the context (I haven't read the other thread, just looking at your post), then my earlier response still answers that question. All the woman had to do was get a **** put in her, while God is the one that is pulling complicated DNA together to create a human being. Who would you say 'created' the fetus? [/devil's advocate]

	18-01-2003 03:01									#106
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Darius871, if one is trying to rationalize restricting abortion legally in a secular society, one has to do so from a secular basis. That means God is, for the purposes of the discussion, non-existant.

	18-01-2003 03:03									#107
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I guess I have to find this other thread first.

	18-01-2003 03:09									#108
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Work with me here.

"a being doesn't have the right to destroy her creation"

While there many ways in which a woman can increase her fertility, can a woman ensure that she will concieve? If God does not want her to have children, she will not.

In this sense all children are a gift from God, we are all creations of God.

In the other thread, you do not make an argument that assumes the existence of a higher power, but here you do. There are secular as well as spiritual arguments against abortion and I don't really care which you prefer.

	18-01-2003 03:12									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Darius871 Sorry, your use of hyperbole threw me off. I didn't know by "chopping off parts of their genitals" you meant circumcision (which is done now for medical reasons, not 'traditional' reasons) or that "beat the living hell out of them every day" meant spanking them on occasion when they break a lamp or something. Perhaps if you had been clear...

it wasn't hyperbole you muppet- I would've called it mutilation if I was using hyperbole. The only reasons I've heard from actual parents for circumsizing their kids is so they won't get laughed at in the locker room, and because the father is Jewish. Sound traditional by me. By "beating the hell out of them every day", I meant a parent who literally does beat the hell out of their children at the slightest provocation and not something you have pulled from thin air, and those who will defend such actions.

Actually, forget all that. Maybe I should just have misinterpreted your post on purpose... so, you think all children who accidentally break property should be beaten into a bloody pulp do you? You might not have said so, but hey, I don't have to take into account your actual opinion to put words into your mouth or assume how you think.

	18-01-2003 04:16									#110
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Work with me here. "a being doesn't have the right to destroy her creation" While there many ways in which a woman can increase her fertility, can a woman ensure that she will concieve? If God does not want her to have children, she will not. In this sense all children are a gift from God, we are all creations of God. In the other thread, you do not make an argument that assumes the existence of a higher power, but here you do. There are secular as well as spiritual arguments against abortion and I don't really care which you prefer.

You're completely evading the point. Here you just said you think God has a right to destroy a sentient, living, breathing person based solely on the fact that being is his creation.

Given an argument that does not assume the existence of God, how can you then assert a woman has no right to abort her creation, the fetus? If there isn't a God in the equation, then the baby has no other creator other than the parents. Ergo, logically, they have every right to destroy it should they wish. They could, by this rationale, even kill it after birth, since it's still their creation.

Just becaused one gave life to a sentient being does not automatically give one the right to take it away.

	18-01-2003 04:45									#111
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"If there isn't a God in the equation, then the baby has no other creator other than the parents."

Boris, I think is the critical point.

In the other thread, I argue that an unborn child is no different from another person, because it has the intrinsic capacity to function as a person.

That argument assumes that it is wrong to kill human beings. If I can show, given this assumption, that there is no real difference between the unborn child and the parents, then I have shown why abortion is wrong.

The creator/creation argument I give here only works assuming a higher power.

Otherwise, you are saying that a parent should be allowed to kill their children at any time they want, even if the child is 50 years old, just because they are the parents.

Any clearer, Boris?

	18-01-2003 06:55									#112
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 While there many ways in which a woman can increase her fertility, can a woman ensure that she will concieve? If God does not want her to have children, she will not.

Maybe I have taken you out of context, but did God make you say that?

	18-01-2003 10:21									#113
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 "If there isn't a God in the equation, then the baby has no other creator other than the parents." Boris, I think is the critical point. In the other thread, I argue that an unborn child is no different from another person, because it has the intrinsic capacity to function as a person. That argument assumes that it is wrong to kill human beings. If I can show, given this assumption, that there is no real difference between the unborn child and the parents, then I have shown why abortion is wrong. The creator/creation argument I give here only works assuming a higher power. Otherwise, you are saying that a parent should be allowed to kill their children at any time they want, even if the child is 50 years old, just because they are the parents. Any clearer, Boris?

So in a universe with God, because God is an omnipotent being, he has the license to kill anything he wants on whatever whim he wants by virtue of his being the creator of that being and it being inferior to him?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the Bible itself, aren't we referred to as God's Children? And doesn't it say that he made us in his image? I think, in light of that, it is just as moral for God to kill us as it is for a woman to kill her fetus. A human being is, in a universe with God, dependent on God for existence. In a universe without God, however, a fetus is dependent on its mother for existence, nothing else. In essence, the woman is the god of the fetus. Certainly, as far as a fetus is concerned, that is the case. Therefore, under your own logic, the fetus is rightfully at the mercy of its god for its existence, and therefore the mother can end the fetus as assuredly as God can end a human being.

	18-01-2003 13:32									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov So in a universe with God, because God is an omnipotent being, he has the license to kill anything he wants on whatever whim he wants by virtue of his being the creator of that being and it being inferior to him? Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the Bible itself, aren't we referred to as God's Children? And doesn't it say that he made us in his image? I think, in light of that, it is just as moral for God to kill us as it is for a woman to kill her fetus. A human being is, in a universe with God, dependent on God for existence. In a universe without God, however, a fetus is dependent on its mother for existence, nothing else. In essence, the woman is the god of the fetus. Certainly, as far as a fetus is concerned, that is the case. Therefore, under your own logic, the fetus is rightfully at the mercy of its god for its existence, and therefore the mother can end the fetus as assuredly as God can end a human being.

dont get me wrong... i am not prolife, but according to ur example, its perfectly valid to kill babies (ones that are born) as well. So infanticide = should be legal?

	18-01-2003 15:25									#115
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The biggest contradiction: Atheists who believe they have free-will

And leading on from that: Atheists with moral values.

	18-01-2003 15:56									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Calc II dont get me wrong... i am not prolife, but according to ur example, its perfectly valid to kill babies (ones that are born) as well. So infanticide = should be legal?

I don't think Boris was saying a person has the right to kill anything he/she has created, he was just noting hypocrisy in what Obiwan said.

quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh The biggest contradiction: Atheists who believe they have free-will

	18-01-2003 16:49									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh The biggest contradiction: Atheists who believe they have free-will And leading on from that: Atheists with moral values.

Hmm... Why would being an atheist (ie you do not believe in an higher power) mean that you don't have a free will. I see what you probably mean though: I do not believe that I have free-will, I know that i have.

As for the moral values, just because i do not need the threat of eternal damnation hanging above me to behave like a decent human being, does not mean that i can't be a decent human being... Anyway from a biological POV, behaving according to the moral values most of us have makes sense, as a society with said values is more likely to survive. All evolution...

	18-01-2003 18:03									#118
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quote: Jack, if you paint a picture, or write a book, are you not also allowed to burn your own book or destroy your painting? Such as it is with God. Why should he not suddenly destroy what he has made? Why does he put up with us at all?

Irrespective of whether you believe God was involved, it is undoubtedly true that the parents created their child (with or without God's help). The child would not exist without their act of creation, and the mother's sacrifices in choosing to undergo pregnancy. The child owes its life to the parents.

Therefore, by this argument, the parents have the right to kill the child at any time.

But, apart from the obvious implications for abortion and infanticide: the issue is whether the person deserves to die or not.

I believe that Osama Bin Laden deserves to die. Therefore I will not condemn anyone who kills him.

If some Christians believe that THEY deserve to die, then they cannot object to being killed by me (or anyone else). They supposedly deserved death, irrespective of where it comes from.

	18-01-2003 18:11									#119
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quote: Originally posted by lightblue Hmm... Why would being an atheist (ie you do not believe in an higher power) mean that you don't have a free will. I see what you probably mean though: I do not believe that I have free-will, I know that i have.

No - that isn't what I mean. I mean that the same logic which atheists (usually) apply to the existence of God can be applied to the existence of free-will (as I have explained countless times on these boeards). Therefore it is inconsistent to believe in one and deny the existence of the other (or at least it is inconsistent to use science to motivate atheism and still believe in free-will).

quote: As for the moral values, just because i do not need the threat of eternal damnation hanging above me to behave like a decent human being, does not mean that i can't be a decent human being... Anyway from a biological POV, behaving according to the moral values most of us have makes sense, as a society with said values is more likely to survive. All evolution...

If you have had no free-will, morality would be a bit of a sham don't you think? After all, why is a human being any more special than, say, a doorknob?

	18-01-2003 18:30									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh No - that isn't what I mean. I mean that the same logic which atheists (usually) apply to the existence of God can be applied to the existence of free-will (as I have explained countless times on these boeards). Therefore it is inconsistent to believe in one and deny the existence of the other (or at least it is inconsistent to use science to motivate atheism and still believe in free-will).

We might have differing opinions as to what free will entails then. To me free will is a logical follow up from being conscious of oneself. The only thing that isn't necessarily free will, though controllable are base instincts like flight or fight response.

I can choose to sit behind my computer all day, or I can choose to go outside for a run. In what form does this not entail free will? I do not believe in a Puppetmaster in the Sky who decides my life's path, therefore everything I do is and must be by my own volition. So being an atheist automatically leads to knowing that you have free will in my book.

As for why I do not believe in a Puppetmaster, it is because of the usual "no proof scenario".

If you take 2 scenarios:

1/ You believe in a God, and do not believe in free will as everything is predetermined by said God eventhough you still consciously make decisions on what to do every day.

2/ You do not believe in a God, and believe that which seems like free will, is actually free will.

(other option) You believe in a God, but do believe in free will as described in 2/. In this case your statement does not make any sense as believing or not in a God would not change the knowledge of having free will.

Which one seems the more logical to you? I can throw in Occam again, but I realise (just as you do) that discussing these things on forums isn't going to convince someone of the other way.

quote: If you have had no free-will, morality would be a bit of a sham don't you think? After all, why is a human being any more special than, say, a doorknob?

The fact that we're alive for a start? A doorknob can't make decisions, we can. So can most higher animals (will I eat this worm, or not). From free will flows the concept of morality. I personally choose not to go around killing people at random and stealing their property. I would not do this even if laws were not in place. Hence, morality.

Again we might differ on our opinions on the exact meaning of morality.