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Grandpa Troll
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I owe..I owe..it's off to work I go
Jul 2000
time: 00:25
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
Define "qualified". I've certainly fought TKD blackbelts. Highest ranking person I've fought is a Third Degree black belt, and I won. Haven't had the opportunity to fight anyone higher than that.
Well, I've seen it in action in TKD tournaments, and I've seen it in action in MMA tournaments. What I've noticed is that in TKD tournaments, you see flashy high kicks. In MMA and NHB tournaments, you do not.
Side kicks are both easily avoided and easily countered with a Thai kick or some type of sweep kick. They can also be caught.
If a TKD fighter brings their leg up for an axe kick, I'll simply shoot on them - sure, I might eat part of a kick, but the kick will not be correctly timed to do maximum damage, and in any case, one kick won't knock me out. Once I get a striker on the ground, they aren't going to have a chance unless they've cross-trained in an effective style of NHB grappling.
First of all, I'm not sure how you are going to "tenderize" the ribs of a good kickboxer or cross-trained grappler. I think you will at least agree that a single Thai kick has more power behind it than any single TKD kick, right? If someone is trained to catch, block, and even absorb Thai kicks, don't you think they can do the same against TKD-style kicks?
This brings us to high kicks. These are very susceptible to being caught, by a good grappler. Not only that, but if the kick misses (and high kicks can also be avoided), the kicker is a bit turned around and possibly even off balance, which leaves them wide open. Finally, there are various good methods for blocking a high kick - these methods are designed to do maximum damage to the kicker, by the way.
I realize this. The problem is, though, multiple kick attacks and combos are kinda useless when the first kick is either caught or countered.
Yes, I'm sure there have been individual cases of a TKD fighter beating a Muay Thai fighter (I assume we're talking about fighters with the same EXPERIENCE level - ranking doesn't really matter, but practical fight experience DOES). However, in general, MMA and NHB tournaments - as well as non-tournament fight experience and training - have shown me that Muay Thai is a much more realistic self defense fighting style.
In UFC, for example, Cal Worsham - the #1 ranked TKD fighter - got his ass kicked. There have been various people in UFC claiming TKD as their style, yet I haven't seen them use any of these multiple kick attacks or combos. The highest ranking TKD fighter I've fought, a 3rd degree black belt, wasn't able to pull off any effective multiple kick combos. I remember that he did try a back kick, which wasn't horribly effective when countered with a Thai kick.
Not that Muay Thai is the ultimate martial art (well, it's not artistic at all, it's a fighting style - martial science, if you will) - no system is the best. Cross-training is very important, and a cross-trained fighter will beat a one dimensional fighter every time.
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I do agree Maui Tai is a very effective style, but to say TKD is totally ineffective thats ludacrious, As for a kick missing and going by, well, thats most probably because the kicker was incorectly throwing his technique. Controled rlease, not wild reckless abandon go into a kick, now if you release the kick and your opponent moves well, it will happen, but you just dont throw wild uncontrolled kicks, thats something all martial artists hould know. Not to bust your Bubble or expose anything that isnt suspected or known, but UFC is great I am just not sure how authentic these fighters are? I am not saying they are not good fightters, anyone whom can take that punishment has to be! I bounced for 10 years in this Marine Corps town on Infamous Court Street and know full well how long a "staged fight" in Movies last versus real deal when your falling over tables, getting bottles and pool cues broken over you head, a fight dont last very long. I watched several UFC "fighter-previews" and saw some fairly sloppy individual techniques, but Royce Gracie, man and Ken Shamrock did some fine work, thats why I am open to many forms, what works use it, as in my original post, having studied sveral styles, chose one that best suited me, I dont fight or compete anymore, serve my Lord, dropped Martial Arts because it was first in my Life, in front of Jesus Christ, so I followed his guidenace , I am not saying Martial Arts is a Sin, surely not, just for Brother Bruce, it was a hinderance unto His Glory!
Peace
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:25
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Troll,
quote:
I do agree Maui Tai is a very effective style, but to say TKD is totally ineffective thats ludacrious, |
I didn't say TKD was totally ineffective, just that a Muay Thai fighter will beat a TKD fighter most of the time.
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As for a kick missing and going by, well, thats most probably because the kicker was incorectly throwing his technique. |
Or, you know, the other person moving or countering.
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Not to bust your Bubble or expose anything that isnt suspected or known, but UFC is great I am just not sure how authentic these fighters are? |
Some suck, some don't.
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I watched several UFC "fighter-previews" and saw some fairly sloppy individual techniques, but Royce Gracie, man and Ken Shamrock did some fine work, |
Yes, they did - they showed the world that grappling beats striking every time, unless the striker is cross-trained.
UR,
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Hm, how did you figure that? Besides having limited applications, shin kicks are slow. |
Umm, the shin kicks of Maurice Smith (who is by no means the best kickboxer out there, even back in his day a few years back) were described as 90 mph baseball bats. Maybe there are other kicks that are faster, but that is fast enough.
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but if I am kicking you and you are punching me, I have got the reach on you. |
True, but who says I'm not willing to eat a kick to get within boxing range or takedown range? Or, what if I just grab the kicking leg?
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The problem with that is you trade long term for short tem. So sure, BJJ gives you a jumpstart now, while Aikido or Taichi won't. But in ten years, you'll have your arse whipped by the same people whose arses you had whipped so long ago. |
I highly doubt that an Aikido or Taichi fighter of any level will beat a BJJ fighter of a similar level.
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Urban Ranger
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Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
Umm, the shin kicks of Maurice Smith (who is by no means the best kickboxer out there, even back in his day a few years back) were described as 90 mph baseball bats. Maybe there are other kicks that are faster, but that is fast enough. |
I haven't seen it, and I don't know who made those decriptions - himself, his promotors, or his opponents? If you will, however, compare a baseball bat and an epee. Which is faster?
quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
True, but who says I'm not willing to eat a kick to get within boxing range or takedown range? Or, what if I just grab the kicking leg? |
If you can eat a solid kick to the mid-riff from me and still come at me without even pausing, I might as well surrender.
quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
I highly doubt that an Aikido or Taichi fighter of any level will beat a BJJ fighter of a similar level. |
BJJ relies on brute strength, while Aikido and Taichi is designed precisely to counter brute strength. Sure, novices in either is highly likely not to have developed the skills to do so, but give them 10 years, and you'll be meat.
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Sheik
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I do To-Shin-Do which is a variation of Ninjitsu. We focus on techniques that can be done by anyone. The art isn't based around competition and is based on the idea that the belts represent different styles. White/Yellow = Earth, Blue = Water, Red = Fire, Green = Wind. A White belt would focus on simple techniques while a blue belt would be fluid in his/her movements and would be fast to adapt while a red would be very forward moving. If you want more information check out:
http://www.questcenter.com/
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Grandpa Troll
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I owe..I owe..it's off to work I go
Jul 2000
time: 00:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
That's still dumb. You still have your back to your opponent, and your arms and legs are not evolved to operate in that direction. Not effectively, anyway. |
Well, I guess if you do not understand the "mechanics" of Martial Arts, then as an outsider yes, it would seem Dumb, but you Never have your back so to speak to your opponent, you pivot, looking over your shoulder, prior to executing your technique, very effective, works on most applications, didnt say you kill everytime you do this, didnt say you whoop superman or cure cancer, I merely stated that the effective technique will function as designed, you look before executing. And try "looking" over your shoulder, you "see" fairly good, the "reverse" kick is meant as a counter to another technique by your opponent, like If me and another are fighting, I would never, ever throw a technique at the same time, JUST BEFORE or JUST AFTER but not at the same time. You will clash, if they counter then you counter, and so forth, Unless your John Wayne or Arnold Schwartzenghagger or Sly Stallone which case, nothing works short of a good script writer 
But as for "effectively" yes, quite so, in fact its really quite basic Martial Arts DEfense, where you are "defending" yourself from an attack, not "Launching" an attack. Try fighting Heads up face-to-face for 10-15 minutes, throw 50 hard kicks and say 35 Hard punches-blocks, gets hard to do, standing toe-to-toe, you soon learn to be creative, "Outthink" or even "Outmaneuver" your opponent. Application has much to do with the mechanics, as does timing and skill, you dont just "reverse" on any occasion, situation has to be right, timing, ect. opportunity too helps!!
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:25
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quote:
I haven't seen it, and I don't know who made those decriptions - himself, his promotors, or his opponents? |
Actually I can't remember who first used it - I believe an announcer who had trained with him.
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If you will, however, compare a baseball bat and an epee. Which is faster? |
An epee. But a leg doesn't cut like an epee, so I'll take the slightly slower baseball bat that'll do much more damage, seeing as how avoiding a well-timed Thai kick is tough anyway.'
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If you can eat a solid kick to the mid-riff from me and still come at me without even pausing, I might as well surrender. |
Again, it's all a question of a kick being timed to do maximum damage at a certain point - if I intercept a kick that's only halfway in, for example, it won't do nearly as much damage as a full kick, right?
quote:
BJJ relies on brute strength |
That's totally incorrect. If BJJ relied on brute strength, how was a small guy like Royce Gracie able to beat lots of people bigger and stronger than him, such as Dan Severn? No, BJJ relies on movement and skill - strength has little to do with it.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:25
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quote:
But as for "effectively" yes, quite so, in fact its really quite basic Martial Arts DEfense, where you are "defending" yourself from an attack, not "Launching" an attack. |
Again, I'm gonna have to play the UFC/Pride/K1 card - if that kind of thing was really effective, it would be used effectively in NHB competition.
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Grandpa Troll
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I owe..I owe..it's off to work I go
Jul 2000
time: 00:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Yes, middle kicks have the best reach, not high kicks. I am not a fan of high kicks - look good in movies, but too vulnerable in real life. They are also slow as DF pointed out. |
Ask opponents whom fought Bill Wallace how slow or ineffective head kicks are?
Up to caliber of indivdual and proper execution and techniques!
As for reach, reach has not everything to do with effectiveness, timing and agility as well as having slight lateral and horizontal and vertical movement, if you put all your effort into a low front snap kick, to shin or mid section, I time correctly, do a jump reverse hook kick to you head, two things happen, a big resounding thud as you spin back and fall down and twoI may just decide toside kick your shin, turn kick your head Jung Kwon your throat Jirugi your face?
Not all the time, but when situation presents itself.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:25
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quote:
Ask opponents whom fought Bill Wallace how slow or ineffective head kicks are? |
Bill Wallace wouldn't last two seconds in today's fight environment of crosstrained kickboxers/grapplers. He never had to fight anyone like that back in his day.
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Grandpa Troll
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I owe..I owe..it's off to work I go
Jul 2000
time: 00:25
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
Again, I'm gonna have to play the UFC/Pride/K1 card - if that kind of thing was really effective, it would be used effectively in NHB competition. |
Ok David, the only thing I am asking, since you believe in UFC as the Gospel, is in all case, you can stop or render head,mid and high kicks useless?
Im just asking, I am not saying head or high kicks are the "exclusive" way to go, certainly not, but they are still very effective.
Troll
BTW, good open discussion going on, hope no one threadjacks this with misinformation, just keep on posting facts and experiences here Ladies and Gents!!
  
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:25
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quote:
I'd like a kick that will make the opponent fall down and grasp his leg/side/groin in pain for long enough that I can run away. |
That's the beauty of a Thai kick - if done properly, it can collapse someone's leg in one kick. Then you don't have to run away - you can just stomp on their face for a little while until you get bored.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:25
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quote:
Ok David, the only thing I am asking, since you believe in UFC as the Gospel |
UFC/Pride/K1 aren't ultimately definitive, yet I think they provide a good benchmark. It's the closest thing we have to no hold's barred mixed martial arts competition.
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, is in all case, you can stop or render head,mid and high kicks useless? |
First of all, realize that I'm nowhere near the level of a Royce Gracie or a Bas Rutten. Keeping that in mind, yes, I can neutralize most high kicks using relatively simple techniques - either blocks or catches.
But my experience is that most people aren't going to try kicks like that right off the bat. For example, when I fought the 3rd degree TKD fighter, he started off with a spinning back kick - I simply avoided it, thai kicked him in the leg a couple of times, and pretty much bull rushed him to overwhelm him with punches. The fight took maybe 30 seconds before it was effectively over.
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Im just asking, I am not saying head or high kicks are the "exclusive" way to go, certainly not, but they are still very effective. |
Sure, against very inexperienced people. I was helping train one of my friends the other day in standup - he's almost exclusively a grappler, and wanted to learn. He kept dropping his hands and exposing his head, so I kicked him in the head a few times to teach him to keep his hands up and stop exposing himself.
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LOl..like saying Football players back in Red Granges day couldnt compete with todays players, well, we will never ever know, unless someone Mugs Superfoot |
It's not like saying that at all. Granted, it's totally counterfactual, but it's certainly a fact that Wallace never had to fight anyone with the crosstrained skill of today's fighters. Bruce Lee didn't either, for that matter.
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Grandpa Troll
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I owe..I owe..it's off to work I go
Jul 2000
time: 00:25
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
That's the beauty of a Thai kick - if done properly, it can collapse someone's leg in one kick. Then you don't have to run away - you can just stomp on their face for a little while until you get bored. |
Now THIS staement I totally agree with, watching the fighters train and compete, if used correctly, sure bet someone gonna cry Uncle!!
If anyone here has a Video Store with some older Martial Art Movies, watch Fighting Black Kings, Real Time Documentary of Full Contact fighting, IIRC, somewher around 1970's-maybe late 1970's or very early 1980's havent seen since maybe 1983..but real footage IIRC from Asia, all sorts of styles, very informative!!
Of course, there is allways Tong Poo..DO NOT WANNA be around that dude, unless script writer has me as his favorite character!!
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Grandpa Troll
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I owe..I owe..it's off to work I go
Jul 2000
time: 00:25
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
First of all, realize that I'm nowhere near the level of a Royce Gracie or a Bas Rutten. Keeping that in mind, yes, I can neutralize most high kicks using relatively simple techniques - either blocks or catches.
But my experience is that most people aren't going to try kicks like that right off the bat. For example, when I fought the 3rd degree TKD fighter, he started off with a spinning back kick - I simply avoided it, thai kicked him in the leg a couple of times, and pretty much bull rushed him to overwhelm him with punches. The fight took maybe 30 seconds before it was effectively over.
Sure, against very inexperienced people. I was helping train one of my friends the other day in standup - he's almost exclusively a grappler, and wanted to learn. He kept dropping his hands and exposing his head, so I kicked him in the head a few times to teach him to keep his hands up and stop exposing himself.
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Wow, Im sorry, I was reading this Post, started tearing up, choked on my food, I mean for real, you are that good, that all high kicks are virtually useless?.. ..and only usefull against "Inexperienced" people..otay I am gonna have to go read Old Yellar, something that makes me Sad so i quit Howling, I mean, To read this, well..I am sure sorry that you have not been exposed to any worthwhile opponents, I mean..leave the elemeentary school kids alone, try grade school or even high shcool age?
J/K David..thought since you were throwing some funny lines out there, i might try the same
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18-01-2003 08:46
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