18-01-2003 03:18									#1
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I've finally decided to get rid of the flabby me and start on a martial art in the summer. I'd prefer a relatively down-to-earth art (ie. one that isn't built around difficult techniques, like high kicks), and one that's useful for self-defence as well.

So, what's good and what's not?

	18-01-2003 03:20									#2
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Muay Thai kickboxing is excellent.

Brazilian Jiujitsu is also excellent.

If you are looking for a good mix of realistic striking and grappling, find a good place for Valetudo.

I've heard good things about Krav Maga, also.

Jeet kune do is a possibility, but only as a last resort, IMO.

Outside of those, I wouldn't take anything, at least not if you want good self defense skills.

	18-01-2003 03:34									#3
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Muay Thai kickboxing is excellent. Brazilian Jiujitsu is also excellent. If you are looking for a good mix of realistic striking and grappling, find a good place for Valetudo. I've heard good things about Krav Maga, also. Jeet kune do is a possibility, but only as a last resort, IMO. Outside of those, I wouldn't take anything, at least not if you want good self defense skills.

How can you tell them apart? Martial arts have adopted so much with one another they all look like just clone of one another these days..

	18-01-2003 03:35									#4
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quote: Martial arts have adopted so much with one another they all look like just clone of one another these days..

Take something like Karate or Tae Kwon Do on the one hand, and something like BJJ or Muay Thai on the other, and you can see a drastic difference in both style and effectiveness.

	18-01-2003 03:39									#5
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I took Hapkido for several years, and it was a pretty practical martial art IMO -- it was mostly just learning balance, focus, and ways to break somebody's wrist (e.g. "If they do this, then you do this and break their wrist" -- after awhile it became pretty intuitive).

It's fine for self-defense, but not so good for getting in shape -- for that, go with kickboxing.

	18-01-2003 03:52									#6
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Speaking of kickboxing, Savate was also one of my options (or should it be called Boxe Francaise?), with English boxing and Savate legwork. The interesting part was that they use shoes for kicking, which seems much more attractive than trying to harden your shins like they do in Muay Thai.

Grappling seems like a skill that's good to have, but I'm not familiar with the different schools at all.

And Jeet Kune Do, isn't it more of a philosophy than a single art?

Finally, Krav Maga probably isn't for me, since they seem to focus on speed which isn't really my thing. I've also heard people say it's a "McDojo", which seems quite possible when you consider that it was developed for a military.

	18-01-2003 03:58									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Jaakko Grappling seems like a skill that's good to have, but I'm not familiar with the different schools at all.

AFAIK grappling falls under two broad categories -- hard forms (Judo) and soft forms (Hapkido). In hard forms the emphasis is on strength, e.g. throwing people. In soft forms the emphasis is on hitting the other guy's weaknesses, e.g. breaking their wrist. The former is a lot better for competitions and staying in shape, the latter is a lot better IMO for real-life fights since it's more adaptable.

	18-01-2003 04:01									#8
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Jaakko, where do you live? Training is very limited to your location in Finland.

There are only few good, working with good trainers and gyms.. so kickboxing and Muay Thai is pretty easy to find here, but BJJ is not (Brazilian Jiu Jitsu), also you can't find Jeet Kune Do in Finland. I would say go with Shootfighting and pick up kickboxing or muay thai too at the same time, or pick one up if you feel it's necessary, as Shootfighting wouldn't give you so good stand up. Well it does, but you should also train those.
I don't know too much about Savate, I think it's pretty ok though, but hard to find good gym and trainers here.
At least with those I guarantee a hell of a work out couple times a week. beefcake.. BEEEFCAAAKE!

	18-01-2003 04:03									#9
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But I would also give good thought what David Floyd tells you. If it's possible, you should take up those he mentioned, start with one and then add, so you know it's for you and don't pay for nothing if you get tired of it ... (but you won't, you get addicted).
Some of them just depends very much where you live.

	18-01-2003 04:06									#10
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loinburger, just as long mister x won't fall into trying something that doesn't work in real situation . Smash the face in, good hard low kicks and solid knees.. One thinks it's not wise to go on the ground in streets if possible...

.. but naturally the ones you spoke of gives decent techniques. My personal preference just is to stare the guy down, then punch his face in, and when he's knocked out and lying on the ground.. then go for braking the wrist .

j/k

	18-01-2003 04:09									#11
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I'm in Helsinki.

I found a link to a Savate school here, so it's definitely an option. If nothing else, they have some really flashy pics from matches.

	18-01-2003 04:10									#12
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Ok, you should have no problems then. Pretty much everything is covered in Helsinki, so you shouldn't have any problems.

	18-01-2003 04:16									#13
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BTW, I found an absolutely cool (and silly) link on Savate of old, http://www.savateaustralia.com . I want to learn Jacket Fu!

	18-01-2003 04:18									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka loinburger, just as long mister x won't fall into trying something that doesn't work in real situation

Oh, absolutely, never trust a martial art that doesn't have a "backup plan" to it. F'rinstance, Hapkido was mostly about breaking wrists or arms or kidneys or whatever, but the instructors fully acknowledged that not everybody was going to be fazed by things like that, so they also taught backup plans like kicking out the guy's kneecaps, or crushing his windpipe, or stabbing him in the face, or whatever.

I knew too many people in jr. high and high school who were psyched up about learning martial arts, but whenever they'd try to demonstrate their techniques on me they'd inevitably fail. "Ok Kevin, grab my shoulder, and I'll throw you!" "No, no, don't grab my shoulder like that, grab it like this." "No, you're holding on too tight. Just kind of, I dunno, rest your hand on my shoulder. And I'll throw you." "Dammit, you're heavier than I thought. **** you, hater." If a martial art only works when the other guy is cooperating, then it's useless.

	18-01-2003 04:23									#15
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Pekka, any idea how good Combat Academy is as a school?

	18-01-2003 06:59									#16
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quote: The interesting part was that they use shoes for kicking, which seems much more attractive than trying to harden your shins like they do in Muay Thai.

Um, that's the problem with kicking that isn't related to Muay Thai - shin kicks are by far the most powerful and effective kicks out there. Little slap kicks, TKD style, aren't very effective. Furthermore, kicks should virtually never be used above the ribs - and the majority of kicks should be aimed at the other person's thighs (can't remember what the nerve is called, cyatic or something like that). If you want to strike someone in the face area, just punch them - punches are much quicker, and can be used in combinations much easier. If you try to kick someone in the face, odds are your leg will get caught.

Pekka's right, by the way, about Shootfighting - if that's what you have available, definitely do that as an alternative to Brazilian Jiujitsu, but make sure you learn some real striking skills (probably Muay Thai and even some normal boxing - those are the two I use for standup and it's very effective).

	18-01-2003 07:39									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka But I would also give good thought what David Floyd tells you. If it's possible, you should take up those he mentioned, start with one and then add, so you know it's for you and don't pay for nothing if you get tired of it ... (but you won't, you get addicted). Some of them just depends very much where you live.

Thats not real good advice, for simply being "tired" of something could be out of frustration, poor instruction or poor implementaion. I dont mean to be rude at your reply, just that I studied for years, instructed in Tae Kwon Do (Korean), also studied Isshinryu (Okinawan) and Teke Soo Chang(Chinese)( Wushu ).

A bit of advice, I studied for over 10 years, went through the various stages of committment. I was on several demonstration teams in the North carolina Area, one-steps and self defense techniques, under Young Brothers Tae Kwon do, affiliates of the Pittsburg based Young Bros. International founded by Kong Il Young, the elder of the Brothers, along with Kong Bo Young and Kong June Young. Sabum Nim Fred McDowell taught me much and challenged me. Traditional style International Patterns, not WTF or USTF or ATF. I learned much as I also did from both Okinawan and Chinese. But I am a Bigger Man, 6'1" and 275, not Fat, just Bigger than some, smaller than many, and Tae Kwon Do did suit me just fine. I would throw 100 kicks each leg of each type kick night in and night out. I varely rarely used the flashy jump-reverse flying kicks, only demonstration or testing, Something about going airborne that commits your movement, unlike ground where you can slide back and forth and side to side. I hope you find a good instructor and give it time, I got frustrated early on because was allways practicing fundamentals, little did I know it would pay off!

Happy Hunting!

Troll

	18-01-2003 07:42									#18
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quote: Thats not real good advice, for simply being "tired" of something could be out of frustration, poor instruction or poor implementaion.

Possibly, but back when I took Tae Kwon Do, I got bored really quickly. Too much scripted stuff, too much flexibility training (you don't really need much of it), too many useless forms, too little practical sparring. So I switched to Kenpo Karate - and I got bored with that within months, for the same reasons. Scripted self defense, forms, no sparring, too much philosophy.

So I started taking Brazilian Jiujitsu. Shortly thereafter, I supplemented it with Valetudo - and I've never been bored with that in the three years I've done it (either training at a school, privately with instructors, or informally).

	18-01-2003 07:47									#19
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Um, that's the problem with kicking that isn't related to Muay Thai - shin kicks are by far the most powerful and effective kicks out there. Little slap kicks, TKD style, aren't very effective. Furthermore, kicks should virtually never be used above the ribs - and the majority of kicks should be aimed at the other person's thighs (can't remember what the nerve is called, cyatic or something like that). If you want to strike someone in the face area, just punch them - punches are much quicker, and can be used in combinations much easier. If you try to kick someone in the face, odds are your leg will get caught.

I'm never going to use any kick over the waistline for sure.
I can believe that shin kicks are powerful, but the laws of physics mean that using a pressure point, such as the edge or tip of your shoe's sole, will always be stronger. This is assuming that you wear hard-soled shoes, of course.

	18-01-2003 07:52									#20
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Um, that's the problem with kicking that isn't related to Muay Thai - shin kicks are by far the most powerful and effective kicks out there. Little slap kicks, TKD style, aren't very effective. Furthermore, kicks should virtually never be used above the ribs - and the majority of kicks should be aimed at the other person's thighs (can't remember what the nerve is called, cyatic or something like that). If you want to strike someone in the face area, just punch them - punches are much quicker, and can be used in combinations much easier. If you try to kick someone in the face, odds are your leg will get caught. Pekka's right, by the way, about Shootfighting - if that's what you have available, definitely do that as an alternative to Brazilian Jiujitsu, but make sure you learn some real striking skills (probably Muay Thai and even some normal boxing - those are the two I use for standup and it's very effective).

I am taking it you havent fought any "qualified" Tae Kwon Do students? I mean, I dont want to "disqualify" what you say, for you may have indeed found some "Unqualified stylists" certainly no one has shared the philosphy behind Tae Kwon Do attacks, although it is a "self-defense" in respects to "sparring" or Kumite or whatever one refers to it as, Tae Kwon Do teaches to hammer, not "slap" kick with side kicks, step behind side kicks, Turning kicks, similiar to but not the same as traditional Roundhouse Kicks, Axe Kicks, all to hips and arms of blocking ribs (Floating first) even a few Twist kicks, which if proficient, sneak past defensive stances to "weaken" floating ribs. If a man cant breathe a man cant fight. Once "tenderizing" ribs then you go a "Headhunting" with Hook Kicks, reverse Hook kicks, turning kicks, straight leg Hook kicks and Axe or what some call Wheel Kicks. Not one at a time mind you but Multiple kick attacks, not all in same position or in same sequence. I am just kinda "defensive" when folks think TKD is"Inferior" to Maui Tai, Maui Tai is a great Form, but it certainly cant nullify the Power of TKD everytime, all the time. As for kicking above the waste and most certainly getting caught?..maybe in early stages, but not for a seasoned student.
I have seen Dennis "Hurricane" Lane in Action, who competed against Dennis Alexio and he was a U S Marine stationed here at Camp Lejeune years ago, I believe now in Washington DC, He stuied under Sensei larry Issac and along side of him for years, I saw his performancees, breaking baseball bats with his shins and kicking telephone poles, AWESOME! But, thats not to say thatb his style is The Best and TKD has "Ineffective" slap kicks
I will behave now, just putting in my $0.02 worth

Peace

Troll

	18-01-2003 07:54									#21
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quote: but the laws of physics mean that using a pressure point, such as the edge or tip of your shoe's sole, will always be stronger

Oh, I see what you are talking about. More like stomps than kicks, then?

As to the tip of your sole, in a couple of places it would be effective - one is the throat, and the other is the groin area. I'm not quite sure how you can kick someone in the throat (well, at least with any consistency - it's the same old problem with high kicks), but you are right, groin kicks are effective.

So, OK - stomps can be effective, and certain front kicks can be effective. Push kicks can be good as well, in certain circumstances. Generally, though, by far the most effective kick is a Muay Thai-style shin kick.

	18-01-2003 07:58									#22
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Possibly, but back when I took Tae Kwon Do, I got bored really quickly. Too much scripted stuff, too much flexibility training (you don't really need much of it), too many useless forms, too little practical sparring. So I switched to Kenpo Karate - and I got bored with that within months, for the same reasons. Scripted self defense, forms, no sparring, too much philosophy. So I started taking Brazilian Jiujitsu. Shortly thereafter, I supplemented it with Valetudo - and I've never been bored with that in the three years I've done it (either training at a school, privately with instructors, or informally).

Ok David I see now what you mant. I would offer this to you:

You dont build a house staring with a Gabled roof.

You clear lot of trees, get good solid foundation, strong floor crossmembers strong,sturdy walls to support second floor, good roof trusses and interior support and then you have a good roof attached, same theory applied to TKD as well as others David, train train train, get basics down, perfect them until they are second nature then move onto more complex theories of training, sparring is good, but if a person is not technically proficient then he will get taken apart, easily seup. I dont mean to be rude or seem like I am disputing your every word, just that I have been there and if you apply yourself to an art form then it will pay off, hard work equals great rewards, HARDER WORK equals GREATER REWARDS!

Peace

Troll

	18-01-2003 08:01									#23
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Here's a link on Savate kicking.

I also read around a bit, and apparently Muay Thai/Savate cross training happens quite often. Maybe I should take both some day.

Edit: Here's the low kick thingie.

	18-01-2003 08:06									#24
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So is TKD only kicking or something?

	18-01-2003 08:12									#25
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quote: I am taking it you havent fought any "qualified" Tae Kwon Do students?

Define "qualified". I've certainly fought TKD blackbelts. Highest ranking person I've fought is a Third Degree black belt, and I won. Haven't had the opportunity to fight anyone higher than that.

quote: I mean, I dont want to "disqualify" what you say, for you may have indeed found some "Unqualified stylists" certainly no one has shared the philosphy behind Tae Kwon Do attacks,

Well, I've seen it in action in TKD tournaments, and I've seen it in action in MMA tournaments. What I've noticed is that in TKD tournaments, you see flashy high kicks. In MMA and NHB tournaments, you do not.

quote: Tae Kwon Do teaches to hammer, not "slap" kick with side kicks, step behind side kicks,

Side kicks are both easily avoided and easily countered with a Thai kick or some type of sweep kick. They can also be caught.

quote: Turning kicks, similiar to but not the same as traditional Roundhouse Kicks, Axe Kicks, all to hips and arms of blocking ribs (Floating first) even a few Twist kicks, which if proficient, sneak past defensive stances to "weaken" floating ribs.

If a TKD fighter brings their leg up for an axe kick, I'll simply shoot on them - sure, I might eat part of a kick, but the kick will not be correctly timed to do maximum damage, and in any case, one kick won't knock me out. Once I get a striker on the ground, they aren't going to have a chance unless they've cross-trained in an effective style of NHB grappling.

quote: Once "tenderizing" ribs then you go a "Headhunting" with Hook Kicks, reverse Hook kicks, turning kicks, straight leg Hook kicks and Axe or what some call Wheel Kicks.

First of all, I'm not sure how you are going to "tenderize" the ribs of a good kickboxer or cross-trained grappler. I think you will at least agree that a single Thai kick has more power behind it than any single TKD kick, right? If someone is trained to catch, block, and even absorb Thai kicks, don't you think they can do the same against TKD-style kicks?

This brings us to high kicks. These are very susceptible to being caught, by a good grappler. Not only that, but if the kick misses (and high kicks can also be avoided), the kicker is a bit turned around and possibly even off balance, which leaves them wide open. Finally, there are various good methods for blocking a high kick - these methods are designed to do maximum damage to the kicker, by the way.

quote: Not one at a time mind you but Multiple kick attacks, not all in same position or in same sequence.

I realize this. The problem is, though, multiple kick attacks and combos are kinda useless when the first kick is either caught or countered.

quote: I am just kinda "defensive" when folks think TKD is"Inferior" to Maui Tai, Maui Tai is a great Form, but it certainly cant nullify the Power of TKD everytime, all the time.

Yes, I'm sure there have been individual cases of a TKD fighter beating a Muay Thai fighter (I assume we're talking about fighters with the same EXPERIENCE level - ranking doesn't really matter, but practical fight experience DOES). However, in general, MMA and NHB tournaments - as well as non-tournament fight experience and training - have shown me that Muay Thai is a much more realistic self defense fighting style.

In UFC, for example, Cal Worsham - the #1 ranked TKD fighter - got his ass kicked. There have been various people in UFC claiming TKD as their style, yet I haven't seen them use any of these multiple kick attacks or combos. The highest ranking TKD fighter I've fought, a 3rd degree black belt, wasn't able to pull off any effective multiple kick combos. I remember that he did try a back kick, which wasn't horribly effective when countered with a Thai kick.

Not that Muay Thai is the ultimate martial art (well, it's not artistic at all, it's a fighting style - martial science, if you will) - no system is the best. Cross-training is very important, and a cross-trained fighter will beat a one dimensional fighter every time.

As for kicking above the waste and most certainly getting caught?..maybe in early stages, but not for a seasoned student.
I have seen Dennis "Hurricane" Lane in Action, who competed against Dennis Alexio and he was a U S Marine stationed here at Camp Lejeune years ago, I believe now in Washington DC, He stuied under Sensei larry Issac and along side of him for years, I saw his performancees, breaking baseball bats with his shins and kicking telephone poles, AWESOME! But, thats not to say thatb his style is The Best and TKD has "Ineffective" slap kicks
I will behave now, just putting in my $0.02 worth

	18-01-2003 08:14									#26
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quote: You dont build a house staring with a Gabled roof....

OK. That's what one of my friends who trained in Wing Chun used to say. My problem, though, is that a martial art that will be effective after 10 years of training isn't going to help me in two months when I get jumped, whereas Muay Thai or BJJ or Valetudo will be almost immediately useful. That's part of what I mean by realistic self defense - usefulness after a short time.

	18-01-2003 08:15									#27
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quote: So is TKD only kicking or something?

Troll can answer that better than I can, but I have observed (and in my brief TKD training, experienced) FAR more kicking than punching. Actually, in most TKD tournaments that I am aware of, punching to the face is illegal.

	18-01-2003 08:15									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Jaakko So is TKD only kicking or something?

TKD is known as"The art of Hand and foot fighting", it is more Foot than Hands, but one complements the other and a good arsenal of knowledge,wit,stamina,heart and patience is what you should strive to possess!

It has a Multiple Kick attack that is is most noted for, some Flashy High Jumping spinning kicks, but not for show, but as retaliatory strikes for an offensive attack from an opponent, One doesnt or should not go around "Bullying" but more so be prepared to thwart and defend and take out a would be attacker.

Troll

	18-01-2003 08:25									#29
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Troll can answer that better than I can, but I have observed (and in my brief TKD training, experienced) FAR more kicking than punching. Actually, in most TKD tournaments that I am aware of, punching to the face is illegal.

Yes David, in Tournaments, I was actually speaking about real life. But I have competed in over 100 tournaments, Point and AAU, Contolled techniques to head are acceptable, just no contact, absolutely no Blind techniques, I debate wheteher a spinning back-fist is blind, but it is really not a clear technique, a Backfist is yes, not spinning backfist. As for spinning kicks, TKD teahes to spin, look over shoulder then throw technique. The reason behind is this: If you opponent is closing on you, you would jump away and throw technique, if he is moving away then you slide or jump forward to close distance.If they are moving laterally then adjust accordingly. Never throw a blind technique. Period. Best way to get hurt and open yourself up. What i have mentioned is not early on used techniques, it can be, but are emphasized more later on in training, but if you train BASIC TECHNIQUES, then they will fall into place smooth and equip you when you most need them. Also, TKD never leads with hands, in fact TKD stress to "counter" your attacker, I never used a 3/4 stance allways side view, meaning only see my arms legs and side torso. This way less target, less silhouette. I have seen WTF(World Tae Kwon Do Federation) use more 3/4 stance, more like slightly opening up groin and chest region and I have seen it almost mirror some "Karate" stance such as Goju Shorin or Japanese Shotokan.

Cheers!


Troll

	18-01-2003 08:27									#30
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Thanks for the info Troll.

But I'm getting more and more interested in Savate. Just think about it, a French martial art of all things, and it seems it's effective too, having grown out of street fighting.