20-01-2003 16:02									#61
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HershO, Let's not debate until we understand. That is the point of this thread afterall - understanding why we are different.

Tell us about Church and State in Germany, et al. Most of us understand, I think, what that means in the US.

	20-01-2003 16:51									#62
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Ned : yep, many countries (including France) pay religious schools with Tax Euros. In France, it was something too sensible to be touched 100 years ago, and it remains today extremely sensible every time an Education Minister dares to touch it (there has been 2 attempts to reform the system inn th last 20 years, one in favor of public schools, the other in favor of religious schools ; both have been cancelled because of the impressive mobilisation of both sides).

There are 2 kinds of private schools : those who have a "contract" with the State, and whose funds are partly covered by taxes (thus lowering the fee for children), and those who don't have such a "contract", and which get nothing.
Schools with contract must abide with the Education Ministry's rules, and must be opened to pupils from all religions, even if these schools are almost all catholic (France has been almost 100% catholic until the rise of Islam through immigration ; yet there are no muslim schools in France IIRC)
The upside for the State is that about 17% of students cost less to educate (since private schools fund partly the education themselves), and the upside for catholic families is that their children can recieve academical religious education.
Naturally, the downsize for left-wingers like me is that we pay taxes for the propaganda of the catholic church.

	20-01-2003 17:04									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Ned HershO, Let's not debate until we understand. That is the point of this thread afterall - understanding why we are different.

Is that a Bush quote ?

As for example Germany: State and Church are not strictly separated. The relationship is governed by state neutrality in matters of world view. That simply means that a catholic school, a protestant kindergarden, an orthodox homeless shalter etc recieve public funding equally for the service they perform - just like other private schools etc that have no religious background.

The state is also funding religious instruction - or ethics instruction for those whose parents are not religious. You could just argue about some remains of preferential treatment that go back to the Concordate.

The US approach leads to all kinds of problems in making that "wall of separation". One of the funniest cases I remember was the one about the state subsidising schoolbusses that bring students (also) to religious classes. It is also allowed to subsidise religion-run hospitals IIRC. De facto you have monotheistic neutrality in the US anyway, not separation. Also, there is no need for a strict seperation for us because we have very secular societies.

	20-01-2003 19:58									#64
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Ned (and to some extent Dan): You really live in a fantasy world. Now, if you can understand the two concepts of religious neutrality (a la Germany and Austria, for example) and strict separation of church and state (a la US and France), we can debate this. Requires a bit of knowledge about comparative constitutional law. Then maybe even Ned would understand why Osama would not like either concept. "Most European countries fund religion directly from tax dollars." Explain. But please not the german "Kirchensteuer".

It MUST be defended. Religion in class is something done in Austria. And not in U.S. It MUST be defended. (I personally don't care because I think religion has a beneficial effect on man and society...even if all made up...but I'm an odd duck.)

	20-01-2003 20:02									#65
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Drunk again ?

	20-01-2003 20:10									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Once upon a time, there was an English prince who love a Catholic girl. He was forced to marry someone else, a good "Protestant" girl. But he continued to love the other. The girl he married came to know that she was not loved, and ... Well now she is gone. The prince still cannot marry his true love. Where is the fault in this tragedy? It is that the Monachy is the head of Church of England. But more than this, this tragic love story drives home to all Catholics that they truly are second class citizens in the UK.

And all that has what to do with the price of kippers?

	20-01-2003 21:15									#67
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Drunk again ?

No. Monday morning.

	20-01-2003 21:19									#68
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I hate Mondays. At least Monday the 13th has passed.

	20-01-2003 21:43									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin And all that has what to do with the price of kippers?

Oblivious to discrimination, as always.

What do you think Ireland is all about, btw.

	20-01-2003 21:48									#70
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HershO, It looks like Germany supports "religion." It just that it is neutral between religions.

Some argue that that is all our own First Amendment says. The Supremes have held the other way. Their rulings lead to the recent Ninth Circuit cases banning the use of "God" in the pledge of allegience because the law supported "monothesism." This provoked outrage in the US, and the Ninth Circuit is reconsidering.

I personally see merit in the German approach.

I still condemn the English state religion approach.

	20-01-2003 22:03									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Oblivious to discrimination, as always. What do you think Ireland is all about, btw.

The Ireland situation would not be resolved if the monarchy was removed and the UK government was segregated from religion.

The issue of Diana and the Prince of Wales has crap all to do with religion.

	20-01-2003 22:13									#72
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America is going both too far and not far enough with seperation of church and state.

On one hand, the court system, persistantly harried by the ACLU, is attempting to eliminate the use of religious symbols or names in public. Which is kinda odd, because then its breaking the other constitutional protection of freedom of religion without persecution.

On the other, we have Sr. Bush. Actually, I support his vouchers, etc. and protection of (christian) religion. But many people don't, and I see their point.

Europe is just odd here. I'll usually defend Europe's actions as opposed to our own, but the whole lot of you are screwed up when it comes to your religious policy.

	20-01-2003 23:07									#73
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Ned:

"HershO, It looks like Germany supports "religion." It just that it is neutral between religions."

Or other world views. You could start an agnostic private school.

"Some argue that that is all our own First Amendment says. The Supremes have held the other way."

Sometimes they did, sometimes not. To me the establishment clause stands against a preferential treatment of baptism, monotheism or whatever, but it does not exclude what is labelled "entanglement" as long as there is no discrimination.

On the other hand, the permanent referrals to god in politics strikes us as odd.

	20-01-2003 23:14									#74
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"It just that it is neutral between religions."

Scientology.

	20-01-2003 23:24									#75
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What about scientology ?

	20-01-2003 23:28									#76
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A religion that is not being treated neutrally.

	20-01-2003 23:33									#77
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Why is it a religion ? And if it is one, how is it treated not neutrally ?

	20-01-2003 23:37									#78
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quote: But more than this, this tragic love story drives home to all Catholics that they truly are second class citizens in the UK.

Must be why Blair is married to one.

	20-01-2003 23:41									#79
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It is a religion because it is recognized as such.

	20-01-2003 23:44									#80
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Recognized as such by whom ? And if it is one, how is it treated not neutrally ?

	20-01-2003 23:47									#81
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Us. We've got a lot more experience than Austria (and you) wrt experimental religion.

	20-01-2003 23:51									#82
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Wasn't there a big US tax law stink about scientology being a religion ? That they bribed their way to religion status means nothing.

Anyway, let's say it's a religion. Put up or shut up.

	20-01-2003 23:58									#83
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As I understand it, a portion of the taxes in Germany is set aside for your religion. Scientologists, since the German gov't incorrectly doesn't recognize it as a religion, cannot elect to have those funds go toward scientology.

	21-01-2003 00:13									#84
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"a portion of the taxes in Germany is set aside for your religion"

That is incorrect.

Recognized religious communities can use the state's tax bureaucracy to collect the so called "Kirchensteuer", actually their membership dues, as a surcharge to income tax (details are very complex, but essentially), for which a portion of the church revenue is refunded to the state for its costs.

If you don't belong to a recognized community, you don't have to pay. I don't know which "portion of your taxes" would be set aside.

It's a uniquely german system, I prefer not having it here, but your claim is a total misconstruction.

	21-01-2003 00:16									#85
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OK, but the scientologists would not be able to avail themselves of this state service?

	21-01-2003 00:28									#86
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No, just like the rabbit breeding Club of Wanne-Eickel, and they would not have to pay for it either.

	21-01-2003 00:34									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman Must be why Blair is married to one.

And why the leaders of the two main opposition parties are Catholic.

	21-01-2003 00:53									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin The Ireland situation would not be resolved if the monarchy was removed and the UK government was segregated from religion. The issue of Diana and the Prince of Wales has crap all to do with religion.

1) If the Monarchy remained but had nothing to do with religion, a large reason for the animosity between the Irish and English would be removed.

2) Is it not true that Charles was forbidden to marry a Catholic?

As to Blair being married to a Catholic -- this is good. But, when was the last a Catholic was PM or Lord Chancellor?

	21-01-2003 00:53									#89
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Hershell. You're confusing me. If there is no benefit to being a religion, why would everybody be making a big fuss about it.

	21-01-2003 00:54									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin And why the leaders of the two main opposition parties are Catholic.

I asked my question concerning Catholic PM's before I saw this.

What parties are headed by Catholics?