20-01-2003 01:32									#1
	GUI: Graphical User Interface Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

In response to Mark_Everson's post, and to keep the general GUI discussion separate from the other graphics.

quote: Originally posted by Mark_Everson in Unit Graphics 2 thread: Lee, and Vovan, how about some art for the respective GUIs you guys are working on? Should we start a separate thread on graphics for GUIs? The concerns are quite different from both units and tiles. Anyone who has the first big request in the general GUI area could start the General GUI Art thread.

Well, I don't have so much a request for specific grpahics, as just general thoughts.

The current GUI does need reworking. However, I don't think that Lee or I can make specific requests right now. Mostly because the style and the "look and feel," as it is put in Java, is not defined for this project yet.

For instance, I will probably need some kind of an OK and cancel button. But so will Lee. And if we have those in different styles, it would look odd and out of place. Therefore, I think that we might want to just kind of decide how the interface will generally look. Will we keep it windows-style? Or will we change it to give the game more flavour? That probably needs to be decided on a more general level than the specific aspects of the game that we are working on.

	20-01-2003 03:33									#2
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Thanks for getting this thread going Vovan!

I had in mind at some point to get away from the utilitarian windows look and go to something with thematically matched skins. But at this stage I don't think its a problem for you and Lee to do different things. That way we'd get to see two different approaches and see what people have to say about them.

What do others think on this issue?

	20-01-2003 12:57									#3
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KISS.
Just use the default OK/cancel buttons for now, we can change them later when we have clear ideas of what the GUI should look like.
Right now, I saw a oui/non (yes/no) button in the game. I am quite sure noone put French resources in Clash, so it must be the default button. It may look ugly and strange, but at least you won't be wasting coding time on stuff we will throw away.
The windowesque stuff will have to be gotten rid of at some stage, but I am quite unable to make any proposal.

	20-01-2003 13:30									#4
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You may implement some themed "skinning", in great tradition of mp3 players, along with interface localization. BTW, how Java works with pixmap'ped widgets (buttons scrollbars etc.)? Creation of customized widget skins would be pretty simple, I think. But distrust commertial games "look and feel", as most of their interface screens are, in fact, custom drawn static images rather than usual UI.

	20-01-2003 13:54									#5
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Well i still think each region should eventually have its own style gui depending on what you choose at the start. Oriental, Indian, Central American, etc.

	20-01-2003 22:16									#6
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I would like to go against the current and say that I like the utilitarian windows interface. That was one of my favorite things about Civ2. While other games take up my entire screen, make multitasking impossible, and use some odd homebrew menu/command system that never works right, Civ2 acted exactly as a Windows program should. It is one of the few commercial games that actually cooperates with the OS rather than trying to dominate it, which meant that I could easily do things like check e-mail in the middle of a game. I think we should keep Clash to that tradition.

In terms of commands, I will say here again that I always preferred the system of left-click for action, right-click for information. So if I left-click on something, it should enter some kind of command or bring up a command menu, while right-clicking simply brings up an information popup. So if I left-click on my unit, it is selected and ready for action. If I then left-click on an enemy unit, an attack command is entered, but right-clicking on that enemy will only bring up information about that enemy. My unit is still selected, but I haven´t ordered it to do anything.

Another possible system, the OS standard and the one you seem to be moving toward now, is to have left-click perform a default command while right-click brings up a more complete action menu. This also works well, but I think it is a bit less flexible and causes information to be harder to get.

No matter what system we use, we should only use one. There must be some single, unified system, or new players will be confused by the variety and have to remember a specific, different sequence for every type of command.

	21-01-2003 21:25									#7
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Heroes of might and magic 2 had both a full-screen mode and a windowed mode (which was identical, but with a window around it); practical.

Be sure to make a keyboard command available for everything. Some folks dislike to traverse the entire screen with the mouse pointer and clicking their wrist to ruin, just to perform basic commands like end turn or select next unit.
Clicks combined with shift, ctrl & alt are also practical: most people have two hands and can use them.

Left action, right info seems a clear guideline. Maybe left clicking (and of course a key) on an already selected unit can bring up the detailed action menu.

	22-01-2003 00:20									#8
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I second the part about keyboard shortcuts. They are a must for serious players, even if newbies never use them. Make it easy to transfer from the mouse to the keyboard. RTS games usually do a good job of this by highlighting the letter of the keyboard shortcut, but we can use the windows method of underlining the proper letter.

Holding down keys like control and shift and clicking is also good as an advanced option, but don´t force players to do this, since it scares new people off IMO.

	22-01-2003 01:12									#9
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Here are my own preferences: Windowed, preferrably allow both windowed and full-screen. Many games have both options, but the windowed mode is usually hidden deep somewhere.

I think inside the game, using windows is possible but they's have to be prettier than what we have now (like those in civ2 for instance, which are customized by the game). I am not set for or against. The good thing with windows is everyone knows how to minimize them.
Note also we can use backgrounf images in the windows. CtP2 does that in the diplomacy screens (or maybe it is only Apolyton pack and cradle mods?): You have a semi transparent background image representing a leader, and text appears on top of it. Using windows with background images would make the look of the game better, but we have to still be able to read text and identify icons/buttons.

I agree with keyboard commands, but we need to have the clicks right before we do the shortcuts. In particular, all road-building, movemen-planning will require some thinking to shortcut (selecting unit, etc.), and if we ever change the mouse way of doing things, we must also change the keyboard way. So feedback on what actions are easily done with the mouse and which aren't is important before doing the shortcuts.

Mouse clicks:
I hate key + mouseclick. It's just me, but I really don't like that at all. Furthermore some combinations are limited because they are used (by Mac) to simulate right clicks.
Left click action is OK, right cllick shoud be a more detailed contextual menu. I think information can be provided by letting the mouse over the screen at some point, and then you show some help message/info/tip. In most programs it is done in a small box near the mouse pointer, but I saw it done (better and faster IMO) by displaying a message in a permanent message bar down the screen (I think it is in Age Of Wonder).

	22-01-2003 08:13									#10
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare Here are my own preferences: Windowed, preferrably allow both windowed and full-screen. Many games have both options, but the windowed mode is usually hidden deep somewhere. I think inside the game, using windows is possible but they's have to be prettier than what we have now (like those in civ2 for instance, which are customized by the game). I am not set for or against. The good thing with windows is everyone knows how to minimize them. Note also we can use backgrounf images in the windows. CtP2 does that in the diplomacy screens (or maybe it is only Apolyton pack and cradle mods?): You have a semi transparent background image representing a leader, and text appears on top of it. Using windows with background images would make the look of the game better, but we have to still be able to read text and identify icons/buttons. I agree with keyboard commands, but we need to have the clicks right before we do the shortcuts. In particular, all road-building, movemen-planning will require some thinking to shortcut (selecting unit, etc.), and if we ever change the mouse way of doing things, we must also change the keyboard way. So feedback on what actions are easily done with the mouse and which aren't is important before doing the shortcuts. Mouse clicks: I hate key + mouseclick. It's just me, but I really don't like that at all. Furthermore some combinations are limited because they are used (by Mac) to simulate right clicks. Left click action is OK, right cllick shoud be a more detailed contextual menu. I think information can be provided by letting the mouse over the screen at some point, and then you show some help message/info/tip. In most programs it is done in a small box near the mouse pointer, but I saw it done (better and faster IMO) by displaying a message in a permanent message bar down the screen (I think it is in Age Of Wonder).

I was going to post on this stuff, but I was fortunate enough in that Laurent said pretty much everything I wanted to. So, until further notice its:

"What he said" for me.

	23-01-2003 01:15									#11
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Java allows appearance to be changed fairly easily through custom L&F.

I think the way actions are performed is in real need of re-doing - there is to much select a square/TF select an action from abutton on the tool bar, select the square to move to/build road, reselect the action button to end action, select another unit and repeat
There is far to much mouse movement to perform common tasks.

I'm not a fan of windowed games - or rather the moveable/closeable/resizeable internal frames.

	23-01-2003 01:42									#12
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I agree. The system of manipulating the game with mouse is in much more trouble than the graphical part of the interface.

	23-01-2003 06:53									#13
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quote: Originally posted by LFS I think the way actions are performed is in real need of re-doing - there is to much select a square/TF select an action from abutton on the tool bar, select the square to move to/build road, reselect the action button to end action, select another unit and repeat There is far to much mouse movement to perform common tasks.

Hey Lee,

I'm game to hear a better spec. A lot of that stuff was determined in a very ad-hoc manner. Did you know that you usually don't need the last "end action"? FE for movement, if you double-click on the final move square, it automatically drops you out of move mode. We are aware the movement interface is klunky and did at least a few remedial things to make it better. But it obviously ain't there yet.

And this is certainly the thread to do the suggesting in!

	27-01-2003 21:41									#14
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Laurent:
Imperialism did the permanent message bar. They showed a graphical representation of goods and moving the cursor over it would make the exact quantity appear over there. Very practical.

Key+mouseclick is just a way to add some much-used mouse commands and avoid a menu infestation. But it should be an alternative, not the only way. Having a visible button for everything is probably a must for a complex game like Clash.

	27-01-2003 23:06									#15
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The folowing is, IMO, a very easy to improve the GUI:

I recommend getting rid of the event window popup altogether unless something really important happens. They are very annoying, and also seem to be a resource hog. There is a big patch of wasted screen real estate down at the bottom, to the left of the popuation figure and the turn and date, which would be a perfect place to put the treasury and growth rate information. If we eliminate the fairly pointless messages about tech growth, then the event window only has to pop up after battles or event-driven messages.

	28-01-2003 07:21									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Richard Bruns The folowing is, IMO, a very easy to improve the GUI: I recommend getting rid of the event window popup altogether unless something really important happens. They are very annoying, and also seem to be a resource hog. There is a big patch of wasted screen real estate down at the bottom, to the left of the popuation figure and the turn and date, which would be a perfect place to put the treasury and growth rate information. If we eliminate the fairly pointless messages about tech growth, then the event window only has to pop up after battles or event-driven messages.

The events box was meant to eventually evolve into something like the newspaper in Civ1 in case that influences your feelings about it. The newspaper would have hotlinks like in the events box now that give more details on anything the player wants to know more details about.

We might want to move to something like in Imperialism (per Simon) or EU (scrolling message window at the bottom). Lets see what some of the others think.

The reason for the tech advancement and econ info is to give the player an idea of the progress their civ is making.

	28-01-2003 08:35									#17
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I agree with Richard in that would be a good idea to put the information about treasury and growth rate into the status bar of the main window right down there with the current date / turn number.

As for the events popup, I also find it annoying at times, especially since it does not stay where you put it, but appears at the default position on every turn. Every time I hit the end turn button, I wish I could run my popup killer in the game.

I do think that it is a good idea to do events in the form of a newspaper, as in civ (although I scarcely remember exactly what it looked like, I kind of have an idea). But in that case, there is no need at all to clog up the memory, and annoy the player by showing him a news bulletin at every turn, is there? I suppose, we could just not show it, and only make it visible on demand, through the button in the views menu.

	28-01-2003 14:20									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Mark_Everson scrolling message window at the bottom

While reading this thread I was thinking of several games where there was a scroling mesage-list at the bottom of the screen, and was about to sugest it. In some game (I don't remember witch) the list was not only scrolable, but sizeable, dragable, dockable, and supported hotlinks. Furthermore the important info came last so that it was always visible at the start of the players turn.

My suggestion is as follows:
Put a multiusage information/interaction pane/window at the bottom of the screen make it dockable, so the player can place it where he/she wants it, make it scalable, and give it a tab-page system.

One of the tab-pages in this pane would then contain the scrolable message window, another the units window, a third would show the tech overview etc. A portion would be set aside to displaying info on the square where the mouse pointer was, or the selected square.

To make it more costumiseable, it could be possible to make all the different views dockable within the pane, so they can be either tabbed or always displayed. Then if there is any new info on a tab-page the tab is highlighted.

Finally a note on skinns vs. standard windows. Personally I'd preffer a system where the game is played in a window compatible with the OS. In M$ Windows and Linux/X-Windows it is possible to make windows skinnable and as far as understand java, this is supported, so I think the game should be developed using standard windows, but with skinns in mind. Then if there is someone who want to create skinns by all means let him/her do it, as long as it does not interfere with the more important parts of the GUI design.

Edited to correct the origin of the quote

	28-01-2003 15:24									#19
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I am not the one who suggested a scrolling window at the bottom, but I agree that it would be better than a popup. Anything would be better than that popup. I only want to see a popup if something really important happens, and even then a fixed area of the screen somewherre would be a better option.

Tech advancement happens more or less constantly, so I think it is a mistake to alert people to every incremental improvement in knowledge. If they want to know that, they will go to the tech window. IMO technology messages should only be displayed in the message area when a new application or technology is developed.

A newspaper is good, but it should only appear when I ask for it. Of course, I should have the option of asking for it every turn, but it shouldn't be required.

Now for some more random comments:

I constantly find myself trying to give orders to units by right-clicking on them on the main map. Since right-clicking a map unit currently does nothing, I think it would be good to allow orders to be given this way if there is only one TF in that square. I don't like using the units box unless I have to, since it requires a lot of extra mouse movement. Right-clicking on an enemy unit in the units box automatically displays information about it, and it would be grand if right-clicking on a unit on the map did the same thing. If there are multiple enemy TF's, it could simply bring up two information wondows.

In fact, I would like to see the units box disappear completely, and I think it can be done. Clicking on a map square can bring up a window with seperate sections for each TF in that square. The left click brings up an orders window for each of the civ's TF's, and the right click displays the details box for every TF. It would be especially good if I could drag and drop units from one TF to another, or to a box that says "New TF," because the current system of assigning units is quite laborious.

The terrain details box wastes a lot of screen real estate by displaying a picture of the terrain. I think that this is unnecessary that that the box should be reduced in size as much as possible.

In my opinon, the ideal screen layout is one where the main map takes up the entire screen, except for a small information bar and a menu bar for bringing up other windows. The world map is fairly useless and I already get rid of it, and I should be able to do without the units box and the details box as well. But that of course is a long term goal.

	29-01-2003 01:08									#20
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I think a log of events that happened permanently available would be good.

About the clicks, right or left clicking a unit would be good, but it requires coordination to click a unit and not a square, or a square and not a unit.
I think the TF box should remain, but maybe only if you ask for details: Instead of popping the text description we've got, details would show the TF boxes and allow player to reorganize the armies graphically. Until we have a better way of moving units, we are stuck with them.

	29-01-2003 07:14									#21
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quote: [SIZE=1]As for the events popup, I also find it annoying at times, especially since it does not stay where you put it, but appears at the default position on every turn. Every time I hit the end turn button, I wish I could run my popup killer in the game.

This is a BUG, mine works just fine! Once I move it, it then appears there until I move it again. I wonder what is different for us.

I need to think about the rest, so will reserve comment until I have time to soak on it. But the discussion is good in terms of long-term directions for the interface. Thanks for all the good ideas!

	29-01-2003 13:04									#22
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I have a general question about the Java GUI. How hard is it to add a GUI display element that simply reads stuff off a text file and displays it in a text box? For example, could we add an option somewhere in the interface to display the last turn´s detailed combat report from the military.txt file?

	29-01-2003 17:36									#23
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quote: How hard is it to add a GUI display element that simply reads stuff off a text file and displays it in a text box?

easy

	29-01-2003 22:19									#24
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Well, it is easy to do that, but I am not sure at all that writing militray information to a file, and then reading from it to display the information that same turn would solve any problems. In fact, it seems that it would slow the game down even further (quite a bit so, actually), because reading / writing to disk is much more time-consuming than from RAM...

	29-01-2003 23:32									#25
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The game already writes all the military and economics information to a file, as well as several other things. If I open log.txt during the game, I can see a list of everything that has happened so far. But the other files are too big to open in notepad, and wordpad doesn´t like to open a file while the game is still running.

Of course, that may be one of the reasons that the game is running so slowly now. The economics log file is especially immense. My last game generated a 759 kilobyte file.