01-06-2002 23:51									#31
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Ok, here's my Bio i guess:

Twinge
Email: twinge@sluggy.net

Occupation: High School Student, primarily.

Clash Involvement: Misc. -- (Playtesting, Commenting, Some graphics, etc.)

Interests: Computers, Candy, AI, Games, Sleeping, Programming, Lego Machine Guns, Cynacism, Sarcasm, Staying Indoors.

	12-11-2002 12:57									#32
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I dug for this thread in order to ask for a catapult/trebuchet image. Since I have apparently coded functional siege warfare (though walls don't build themselves yet), I think having a siege weapon image would be nice. Right now legions have engineers who can breach walls, but another unit would be cool, any siege weapon could do:
Catapult, trebuchet, ram, assault tower...

(I managed to make a nice catapult but was unsuccessful in making the background transparent, but managed to wreck all the pixels in the process so I think I'll leave that task to people who know how to use drawing software)

	14-11-2002 18:23									#33
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Considering units will become more efficient as tech progresses, I thought it might be a good idea to have their image eventually changes as tech progresses too.
My first thought was: this would allow to model siege weapons as a sincle unit, start with a catapult image and, when the techs have reached an appropriate level, replace catapult by trebuchet. This is really a cosmetic change, but reflects the fact that construction techniques made units more effective. Also, units cost something to upkeep, so that cost may as well be considered an upgrade cost when the upgrade is continuous.

This is very open for discussion, but I think it can be interesting, and it is very cheap to code. It could allow to model lots of units with very few stats (e.g. I think I will have siege weapons (catapult + trebuchet) and then cannon, but if I want a single unit to represent them all, and not worry about upgrading units, that can be done easily. Mind you, I realize that although you could turn a catapult into a trebuchet by reusing the stones and some wooden parts, you cannot change that into a cannon. For other units, mostly infantry and cavalry, however, it could be worthwhile (reflecting the change in clohing, armor, etc. over time, like after roman legions invaded Gaul, they used iron pot helms and chain instead of their previous leather and bronze armor while still being legions).
For instance, after reaching a certain level in gunpowder, you could replace a musketeer with a big untrustful-looking gun with one with a better looking musket.
In scenarios, you could use the change graphics inventively (for instance in a civ2 Russian Revolution scenario, techumseh changed all German units into deserters who were quite inapt at fighting, via Leonardo - here, the discovery of a "End of WWI" tech through event would reduce the stats of all German units and chang their graphics).
It also makes it very easy to have graphics tied to a civ. I know that the tech model isn't intended to provide civ-specific techs, but almost all civ2 scenarios I played included such a tech, so it would be a boon for scenario makers, as they could devise one unit stats and provide different graphics (again, this is something very common in civ2 scenarios: you have 4 or 5 units with the same stats, but different looks depending on the civ).

What do you think?
Of course I would have to have both a catapult image and a trebuchet image (or ram or assault tower...) to make use of that, but I could also change the Carthago scenario to have Legions stay Legions but change graphics when Marian reforms come over (i.e. Military Tactics rises enough) in order to test the stuff (obsolescence already works as romans, being able to build legions, can't build phalanxes).

	15-11-2002 06:42									#34
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I think that's a Great idea Laurent! I can't think of any downside other than needing the extra images. It will give the player tangible feedback on improvements in their own tech in a painless way, and also let them compare military techs. I'll think about it to see if there are any problems, but I'd say go ahead and check it out, and if there is a downside we'll probably see it soon once we're using the technique.

	05-12-2002 22:43									#35
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(bump)
Catapults anyone?
Or does someone know how to make a gif with transparent background? I tried using paint, gimp, and a pair of other programs I can't remember the name of, and still cannot manage to do it. Next time I will try to edit the file with a hex editor to get the good background. Did I hear someone say "hack"?

	06-12-2002 06:47									#36
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Hey Laurent:

On maybe getting someone art-capable interested. . . Markos is going to try to get that article I wrote a few months ago up with a news item pointing to it. It describes Clash and puts in a plea for people to help out with playtesting. It may increase traffic to the forum, and possibly get us another artist in the fold.

You might want to email or PM che. He's a pro web designer, and may well know what it takes to make a transparent gif. Also asking on one of the creation forums here at Apolyton might do the trick.

	06-12-2002 14:30									#37
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I managed to get the transparency stuff through irfanview. I am not really happy with my catapult, but it will do as a placeholder. I also did a trebuchet which looks ugly by itself but looks quite good in-game. I'll try to get something better, and post on scenario league to try to get some images.

	20-12-2002 03:50									#38
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Having (almost) ended my ISP problems, I try to upload the images I made. I'll try to convert some other images from civ2 modders who allow me to if you think they are really ugly.

Attachment: catapult.gif
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	20-12-2002 04:03									#39
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Now a trebuchet... This one is not very handsome (lacks contrast), but it doesn't show too bad in the game. I am unable to provide in-game screenshot now.

Attachment: trebuchet.gif
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	20-12-2002 04:51									#40
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Hi Laurent:

They look pretty cool. My only problem is that the trebuchet is reminiscent of an oil derrick!

On another subject, I sent you an email at your old email address earlier today. It ocurred to me that it may no longer be good. If your old email address isn't working any longer, could you send me the new one? Or I can temporarily PM you if the email is still up in the air.

Cya,

Mark

	20-12-2002 05:23									#41
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quote: My only problem is that the trebuchet is reminiscent of an oil derrick!

Of course. Didn't you know Middle-Age engineers used oil pressure to breach walls? It is only much later that the byzantines thought of putting fire to it by mistake while trying to sink a ship the way they tried to breach walls?
I think I'll try to find one better looking...

	20-12-2002 05:45									#42
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare Of course. Didn't you know Middle-Age engineers used oil pressure to breach walls? It is only much later that the byzantines thought of putting fire to it by mistake while trying to sink a ship the way they tried to breach walls?

ROTFLMAO! I didn't know you were such a student of history!

	24-12-2002 03:22									#43
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I used another technique to draw siege weapons (basically starting from photographs or existing drawings), and here go:

Attachment: ballista.gif
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	24-12-2002 03:23									#44
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That was a ballista. Now a mangonel (I hope my background will show transparent):

Attachment: mangonel.gif
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	24-12-2002 03:24									#45
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And a new trebuchet:

Attachment: trebuchet.gif
This has been downloaded 77 time(s).

	24-12-2002 05:29									#46
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Pretty Cool! That's a great approach. I worry a bit that the colors might blend in too much on some types of terrain, but they are a solid effort that I hope works out.

I've got one question though. . . Why all the detailed siege engine types? I thought we were just going to go with a generic siege engines element.

Do you think you know enough to throw together some econ specials images? I heard from sas recently, and he may be coming back. But just in case. . . They don't need to be good, just recognizable. The specials I'm going to put back in are gold, tin, salt, and cloth. See the Map Graphics Thread part III if you're interested.

	24-12-2002 14:44									#47
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I made several images in order to get at least one which would look cool. We will probably only use one or two, but changing image as siege engines become better is also what I had in mind.
The ballista is quite nice in game, the others are too grey and tend to blend in too much in the background, so I'll probably use the ballista image only.

	24-12-2002 21:51									#48
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Hi Laurent, good idea. I think I have enough images for the econ specials that I can get by for now BTW. I got them from Gar's old work. They aren't perfect, but will do for now. I'm most of the way through getting specials hooked up through xml, and the economy can use them as before. Once I've got the images going, I'll see what I can do for merchants.

	17-01-2003 15:53									#49
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This is in reply to targon's question in the guestbook as to what we need for art. . . He also has some comments on graphics from that thread that he'll hopefully post here shortly.

Two things we need are a horse archer unit for the Attila scenario, and an ancient mediterranean merchant/transport ship circa the Roman republic.

Any other unit needs Laurent?

There are also the economic specials icons I requested in the post above.

Lee, and Vovan, how about some art for the respective GUIs you guys are working on? Should we start a separate thread on graphics for GUIs? The concerns are quite different from both units and tiles. Anyone who has the first big request in the general GUI area could start the General GUI Art thread.

	17-01-2003 16:01									#50
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Reposted from guestbook thread, sorry for cross-posting
Hey, people, I'm new here, so don't feel shy to blame on my pesky questions.
In fact, I'm artist from the Stella Polaris team but this job seems to be not err... dense, especialy without a line of published code or documentation. So some people suggested me to look at Clash, as you may need some more graphics. OK, Clash seems to even work, has website, on-line docs and so on. It gives completely new, refreshing feeling.
So let me ask several questions about the Clash:
Q1) Why you scare people with Window$ download links while the game is in fact cross-platform?
Q2) You're tied with really slow bytecode language, Java (mention about languages other than Lisp was censored), so Clash manages to "brake" even on fast mashines. So what about some speed-ups (like native compiling etc)?
Q3) Does the game closely tied with ancient theme or it's only the current state?

Q4) If you need some graphics, please suggest that kind of and what size. Current game tiles, particulary unit sprites, are somewhat small. Some increase, say 150%, will surely inprove overall game outlook and reduce headashe due to manipulating microscopic tokens on modern big monitors.
Q5) Do you plan to employ graphics other than tiles, for example splash screens, wonders, gamecyclopedia etc?
I've got some suggestions on these topics in the guestbook, thanks to their respective authors

	17-01-2003 16:11									#51
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BTW, I'll be surely in disperate need of some historical reconstructions, most notably, equipment and ammunition of these ancient guys. Suggestions (no printed books please unless you're sure this book is available in Russia) are welcome.

	19-01-2003 04:53									#52
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quote: Originally posted by targon BTW, I'll be surely in disperate need of some historical reconstructions, most notably, equipment and ammunition of these ancient guys. Suggestions (no printed books please unless you're sure this book is available in Russia) are welcome.

That might prove a little hard to find... But I am sure that some internet research should bring up some detailed results.

	19-01-2003 07:52									#53
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Here are some image sources I turned up in a quickie web search:

Pictures of Painted 15MM miniatures
There are Hun and Mongol horse archers and a wealth of other military figurines. The guys seem to know their stuff, based upon my admittedly limited knowledge of such things.

There are a couple of hunnish horse archers to the left in this image

Here is a link to a pic and description of a Roman Merchant Ship

Several more ancient ship pix here

That should be enough to get you going targon!

Last edited by Mark_Everson on 19-01-2003 at 08:12

	19-01-2003 08:57									#54
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Well, I have finally gotten to posting the list of links I found.

Horse Archers:

http://www.columbiagames.com/Suppor...ns-HORSEBOW.gif
http://www.graham.day.dsl.pipex.com/100war_archer2.gif - This guy is kind of more modern than we need - circa 1300s AD
http://www.kushan.org/pictures/archer.jpg
http://www.horsearchery.com/ - This site is dedicated to modern horse archery. But it has some history and pictures. It has very detailed pictures of bows (for sale ) which you might find useful. Check out the history and pictures sections

The images below are horse archers as represented in other games:
http://stronghold.heavengames.com/s...horsearcher.png - Stronghold
http://hot.ee/empires/Aoe/yksused/horse_archer.gif - AoE

Ships:

http://www.columbiagames.com/Suppor...ians-VIKING.gif
The ship above isn't at all mediterranean - it is a viking-style ship, but I fugre you could use that pic, too

http://www.livius.org/ba-bd/batavians/ship.jpg - Roman war-ship reconstruction
http://www.nabataea.net/Roman%20Trade%20Ship.jpg - A small but very nice pic of a roman trade ship
http://www.nabataea.net/sailing.html - the article on ancient ships, from which the above picture was taken. It has more pics, and some nice historical summaries.
http://www.unc.edu/courses/rometech...s/merch_03.html - a schematic depiction of roman merchant ships. Might not be very useful, but take a peek any way.
http://www.guineahobbies.com/IMAGEN...SMO/MANT770.gif - Roman War Galley model very detailed and good-looking.
http://www.abc.se/~m10354/bld/shiptype.htm - a basic list of ancient ship types with small descriptions. You have your roman mercahnts, egyptian ships, triremes, junks, and other junk.


That seems to be about it for now.

	20-01-2003 13:15									#55
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Wow, thanks a lot. The most of "primitive" archer info I've found was about Mongolian tradition, that isn't OK for the Atilla scenario, IMHO. Gunns were quite different form the later mongolian hordes.

	20-01-2003 13:22									#56
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OK, now I have something horse-like. That "noble animals" proved to be a little hell to model. BTW, that kind of horses was in use in Atilla's army ("traditional" European, mustang-like, steppe kinds, Arabian kinds etc.)? I may figure out basic equipment schematics from your pics, I think, but horse "from-factor" may be other artist's imagination.
There is the pic. No archer yet.
Nobody laughing!

Attachment: mongol.png
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	20-01-2003 13:58									#57
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quote: Originally posted by targon Wow, thanks a lot. The most of "primitive" archer info I've found was about Mongolian tradition, that isn't OK for the Atilla scenario, IMHO. Gunns were quite different form the later mongolian hordes.

What do you mean exaclty? When they were first used or what?

	20-01-2003 14:03									#58
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Oh, I'm really sorry!
It was a typo, I've meant Huns. Sorry, but in Russian they are named as "Gunn" (singular, "u" is pronounsed as open, "oo" I think)

	20-01-2003 21:21									#59
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quote: Originally posted by targon OK, now I have something horse-like. That "noble animals" proved to be a little hell to model. BTW, that kind of horses was in use in Atilla's army ("traditional" European, mustang-like, steppe kinds, Arabian kinds etc.)?

Hi targon, thanks for the sample horse! Is it done based on a mesh, or drawn by hand? The head looks a little big to me, but I don't have much experience with horses, so I could be wrong.

I would guess steppe ponies like the Mongols had for the Huns, but I really don't know for sure. If in doubt you could just go by the look of the horses in the more athoritative-seeming images. We'll probably at least 'European' and steppe horse types eventually, and are not really picky about the graphics at this stage.

When do we get to see one with an archer?

	20-01-2003 21:30									#60
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Targon, that is a very nice horse. I kind of don't agree with Mark - I think its head is fine. Though it seems that the rump is kind of ... big.

Now, I have found a web-ste, where the folks are making an anatomically correct 3-D model of a horse, and are describing it in some detail:

http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~simmons/Equus/equus.html

I have no idea if that would help you any, because I am about as good at computer graphics as a balet dancer in Java programming, but I hope it does. Though I do agree with Mark that I would rather see an archer on it before it being 100% anatomically correct.