20-01-2003 18:02									#1
	Two Cities and Na'rmer Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I would like to start a discussion about some facts...

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos TURNCHAT EVENTS LOG (1320 A.D. Turnchat) .... Victorious Elite Cavalry produces a GREAT LEADER, Na'rmer! .... Frankfurt captured from Germany - 8 resistors .... Berlin captured from Germany - 3 resistors Prodution in both Frankfurt and Berlin set to temples, WF's set to starvation ..... Na'rmer moved to Apolyton for his victory parade Thus Ends Term 7

I was planning a chat Wednesday, but we need to decide about three things:

1- Do we want to keep Berlin? Remember, the Coppernicus Observatory is there...

2- Do we want to keep Frankfurt?

3- About Na'rmer... What we gonna do?
Arnelos posted a thread with many options, look here .
So far, the main options are:
a- Rush Wall Street
b- Build an Army
c- Save him for a Modern Wonder (especially U.N. to prevent Diplomatic victories)

About the former german cities:
Do we need a poll? If so, the options should be: keep both, keep one, keep another (and Abstain, of course )

I need a Senator to post a Senate Bill of each issue listed above, I suppose...
So, any volunteer?
As soon as possible, please...I really want a chat this week.

Aro

Edit: typos, data, etc

	20-01-2003 20:18									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Frankfurt is pop 11 with 8 resistors. But it does have several good buildings remaining, including a Factory and Hospital. But with 8 resistors it will almost certainly go into anarchy when the resistors turn to unhappy citizens. How many turns? depends on how fast the resistors turn. My guess is 2 to 3 turns of Anarchy.

Berlin is pop 3 with 3 resistors. This is manageable. a small say 10% lux slider and this one should be ok. Rush something asap. Probably a temple, but possibly a marketplace.

Leipzig is new Palace location and close to each of the above. We should take Liepzig in 2 turns. The first turn positions the Artillery, while the second turn fires massed Artillery and then assault. Fortunately, as a result of taking Frankfurt and Berlin, we can re-mass our Artillery. Let's not make that tactical mistake again.

Na'rmer- This wasn't on the list, but if we are going to keep Frankfurt, we might want to rush a marketplace there. I know this sounds silly, but it's the only practical way to reduce unhappiness quickly.

Other than that, it really doesn't matter what we do with Na'rmer because we are so strong now GL's are unnecessary.

I also took a general glance at our build queues. If I didn't know better, I would think we must be at peace. Infrastructure everywhere I looked. We will build the requisite number of hospitals this turn to build BFM and have a few nice places to add back worker pop. Look at puffing G-town up to make a Cavalry in one turn. This requires mining one irrigated tile and adding back 2 workers. We really do need some Cavalry re-supply to continue our campaign.

Enough rambling for now

Ssgt roadcage (retired)

	20-01-2003 20:33									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by roadcage Na'rmer- This wasn't on the list, but if we are going to keep Frankfurt, we might want to rush a marketplace there. I know this sounds silly, but it's the only practical way to reduce unhappiness quickly. Ssgt roadcage (retired)

Hmm... Don't sounds silly to me.

	20-01-2003 21:39									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

So unhappiness is a big issue in the German conquered cities. Big deal, we can always turn citizens into specialists (even if the city will starve for a few turns) until a marketplace is build. That's certainly no reason to panic and abandon a city or waste a GL on a marketplace.

	20-01-2003 22:07									#5
	Put an end to popups!

You cannot turn resistors into specialists. Our occupying forces turn them into citizens which will most likely start life as unhappy. Hence next turn Frankfurt will almost certainly riot.

Yes we can turn those unhappy citizens into more entertainers during the next turn, but as long as there is resistance or local anarchy at eot cycle time, we produce no shields and cannot cash rush on the next eot cycle.

Cleansing the resistors will most likely take 2 or 3 turns. Meanwhile Frankfurt is at extreme flip risk.

However there are no restrictions on Leader rushing. We simply change the build to the most happy face generating option available (marketplace) and let Na'rmer do his thing.

Chances are, the 9 additional happy faces created by the marketplace will prevent a riot when several resistors become citizens next turn. Yes we will probably switch some or most of them to entertainers next turn, but we will be much furthur down the road to making Frankfurt viable.

The clincher to this argument is that all other uses for Na'rmer can easily be done by other means. Yes we want the UN, but I have difficulty with the concept that our DM cannot develop a reasonable shield storage plan to complete that wonder very quickly after we have the enabeling tech. Yes we want Wall Street, but we have many cities with Factory and Hoover access quite capable of the task. Yes, many of us want more Armies, but around 1400 ad or so Ferropolis will start popping them out like hotcakes. So....

Great Leaders are intended to do things that your civilization otherwise cannot do. Using them as a convenience and an alternative to planning and executing cheapens them.

And we absolutely, positively cannot do anything with Frankfurt until the resistance is quelled and the population there is content.

Ssgt roadcage (retired)

	20-01-2003 22:54									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Disband him. We don't really need him after all

I suggest another army, but don't put anything into it until we get tanks.

I would also recomend against any more cavalry as they will be obsolete soon. Wait til tanks for any ore offensive units. Infantry is ok however.

just my 2 cents.

	20-01-2003 23:21									#7
	Tired of ads?

Save him, at least for now. If you save him for now and just keep fighting the war, not all that many people will mind (from the poll results so far).

	20-01-2003 23:25									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

We shoudn't save him. If we save him we can't get another leader.

	20-01-2003 23:39									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

If we decide to keep these cities, before we do anything else we should build workers WHILE constantly starving the cities down. This way the population goes down and we get some extra workers to supplement our workforce.

Hell, if anything we can eventually gift them away to some other civ. But regardless, I think we should keep these cities.

	21-01-2003 01:17									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by roadcage You cannot turn resistors into specialists. Our occupying forces turn them into citizens which will most likely start life as unhappy. Hence next turn Frankfurt will almost certainly riot.

I don't care about resistors. Resistors simply count as unproductive laborers that aren't happy, content nor unhappy and cannot cause civil disorder (unless they stay resistors for a long period of time, which will not happen since we have lots of military units to suppress those resistors).
I meant to turn regular unhappy laborers into specialists.

quote: Chances are, the 9 additional happy faces created by the marketplace will prevent a riot when several resistors become citizens next turn. Yes we will probably switch some or most of them to entertainers next turn, but we will be much furthur down the road to making Frankfurt viable.

You're weighing rushing a marketplace and preventing a remote chance of flipping (remember - the ratio of culture comparing our total cultural value to the Germans' is greatly in our favor, plus we have lots of troops garrisoned in Frankfurt) against saving 800 shields by creating an army with the GL instead of building one.
If we're so afraid of a culture flip, we might as well raze Frankfurt.

quote: The clincher to this argument is that all other uses for Na'rmer can easily be done by other means. Yes we want the UN, but I have difficulty with the concept that our DM cannot develop a reasonable shield storage plan to complete that wonder very quickly after we have the enabeling tech. Yes we want Wall Street, but we have many cities with Factory and Hoover access quite capable of the task. Yes, many of us want more Armies, but around 1400 ad or so Ferropolis will start popping them out like hotcakes. So....

Umm... yeah. We can build Wall Street, Battlefield Medicine, the Military Academy, The UN, several armies and the rest in Ferropolis and a few other cities... but wait, that sums up to A LOT of shields, doesn't it? A lot of shields that if saved, could have been spent on improvements such as nuclear power plants, modern armor tanks, universities and banks (still missing in many cities because we delayed those to build hospitals and factories) and later research centers... and so much more.
We've got so many things to build... wouldn't it really help if we could rush one of those wonders, or an army, and save up to 800 shields? We have an opportunity to do that, but wait, too bad, we're going to rush a marketplace to save a lousy corrupt city from a remote chance of culture-flipping.

quote: And we absolutely, positively cannot do anything with Frankfurt until the resistance is quelled and the population there is content.

We can starve the population, or we can build workers to distribute Frankfurt's population away from the city.

	21-01-2003 01:35									#11
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I completely agree with Shiber.

	21-01-2003 02:07									#12
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by roadcage Infrastructure everywhere I looked. We will build the requisite number of hospitals this turn to build BFM

Thank you, but I have already been built.

BFM

	21-01-2003 02:08									#13
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Cities in disorder do not starve. Cities in disorder do not produce shields or gold. It is probably best to move a settler to Frankfurt, abandon the city, and rebuild with the settler.

	21-01-2003 02:17									#14
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster Thank you, but I have already been built. BFM

	21-01-2003 02:49									#15
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by roadcage Cities in disorder do not starve. Cities in disorder do not produce shields or gold. It is probably best to move a settler to Frankfurt, abandon the city, and rebuild with the settler.

The idea was that we don't let the city enter disorder (which would just double the chance for a culture flip), but use specialists to maintain enough happiness in the city, while building workers to decrease the city's population.

	21-01-2003 06:04									#16
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Shiber, please listen. There are 8 resistors and 3 citizens. The maximum number of entertainers we can have is 3.

We will enter the eot cycle with 8 resistors, and 3 entertainers. It's the best we can do.

While I would have to play ahead to know for sure I expect that 4 or 5 of the resistors will be put down by our garrison forces on the first turn.

So when we next see the screen there will be
4 or 5 citizens (who will most likely be unhappy)
4 or 3 resistors
3 entertainers

And Frankfurt will be in disorder

There is little that we can do about it.

	21-01-2003 14:18									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

AFAIK, if your city enters a state in which there are more unhappy citizens than happy citizens after the eot cycle, you have until the end of this turn to resolve the situation before the city actually goes into disorder.

	21-01-2003 16:02									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

If it was a military decision I would starve the populace to wean out the resisters....

SMC Meshelic

	21-01-2003 21:07									#19
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Road Cage is correct.

If too many resitors stop resiting in a single turn, the city will instantly enter disorder. The only grace period is for city growth.