23-01-2003 22:07									#61
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so why did he say he had done it?

	23-01-2003 23:09									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel IIRC, it was an animal rights activist.

Not only that:

He is a male
He is bald
He is the father of a baby girl

	23-01-2003 23:10									#63
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 so why did he say he had done it?

Nope

	23-01-2003 23:17									#64
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy quote: Pissed it is... The old Christian Democratic arrogance is back, I see. You obviously missed my point. YOU are the one who's arrogant, with your simplification of parties you disagree with. Like I said, no arrogance on my side, you're allowed to have your opinion and I respect it eventhough I disagree with it. It's something leftish people always feel like, and they will always feel that way. You guys feel like you have the superior opinion. And that is the end of democraty.

(Italics by Germanos)

I rest my case

	23-01-2003 23:23									#65
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quote: gah, it seems that the ZOG's plan to take over the netherlands have failed. well, there is always next year.

Yeah! Then I will be able to join a real intifada!

	23-01-2003 23:36									#66
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germanos do you mean that he didnt say why he did it?

thats odd...

	24-01-2003 00:04									#67
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Help this american out.

Are the the Dutch Social Democrats explicitly "third way" like Blair, Clinton, and (sort of) Schroeder?
Are they closer to Blair on foreign policy or Schroeder???
Are their disagreements with the Socialists more on foreign policy or domestic policy??

	24-01-2003 00:45									#68
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Help this american out. Are the the Dutch Social Democrats explicitly "third way" like Blair, Clinton, and (sort of) Schroeder? Are they closer to Blair on foreign policy or Schroeder??? Are their disagreements with the Socialists more on foreign policy or domestic policy??

#1:
Yes, very much so. Both Tony Blair as well as Gerhard Schroeder regard Wim Kok (Prime Minister of Holland from 1994-2002, and PvdA (Labour Party) to a large extent as their 'teacher', or at least as an example. (no bluffing here) Clinton apparently was quite impressed with him as well.

#2:
Closer to Blair I suppose, although I don't really now what you mean by this question. The Netherlands have a long tradition of Trans-Atlantic ties ( meaning: they are quite strong supporters of keeping European Foreign (and Economic) Policy closely tied to the USA). Other then that, the Netherlands are to a large extent the founders of the EU, as they first founded the BeNeLux (a sort of mini EU between Belgium, Netherlands and Luxemburg) that was together with France, Germany and Italy at the root of the present day EU, when the six countries founded the European Community of Coal and Steel somewhere in the 50's.

#3. Most of the differences are on Domestic issues (economic) then at Foreign Policy.
Not that they agree much on Foreign policy though...

	24-01-2003 00:56									#69
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quote: Originally posted by germanos #2: Closer to Blair I suppose, although I don't really now what you mean by this question. The Netherlands have a long tradition of Trans-Atlantic ties ( meaning: they are quite strong supporters of keeping European Foreign (and Economic) Policy closely tied to the USA). Other then that, the Netherlands are to a large extent the founders of the EU, as they first founded the BeNeLux (a sort of mini EU between Belgium, Netherlands and Luxemburg) that was together with France, Germany and Italy at the root of the present day EU, when the six countries founded the European Community of Coal and Steel somewhere in the 50's.

I was thinking in terms of the attitude to the US, war on terror, Iraq, the Middle east, etc.

I realize the EU is at least as big an issue to Europeans, we Yanks tend to overlook that (or at least I do) , partly through general ethnocentrism, partly do to the high salience of the war in our current affairs.

	24-01-2003 01:00									#70
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 germanos do you mean that he didnt say why he did it? thats odd...

For about half a year he was completely silent on the issue.
Late last year he confessed, but still no statement why he did it.
Currently, he is in a mental institution so the shrinks can establish a psychological profile on him.

Trial is .... Ehrrrm, I don't know. I expect it to be somewhere in the fall this year.

All points to an assault by a looney rather then a thoroughly deliberate polital motivated act.
Obviously all this makes for wild speculation. From a leftist political plot to the CIA being involved .

	24-01-2003 19:38									#71
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quote: What is Labour's designation?

PvdA

quote: I was thinking in terms of the attitude to the US, war on terror, Iraq, the Middle east, etc.

None of the the big parties said they support the US like Blair does, however the CDA, the largest party, supports the US in keeping the pressure on Iraq.
I don't know how the PvdA feels about it, but it is probably less supportive then the CDA.

	24-01-2003 20:27									#72
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PvdA will only support a war if the Security Council agrees on it.

Groenlinks will only support a war if the UN General Assembly agrees on it.

SP won't support a war.

CDA is likely to support a war, with or without UN approval.

	24-01-2003 20:48									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus PvdA will only support a war if the Security Council agrees on it. Groenlinks will only support a war if the UN General Assembly agrees on it. SP won't support a war. CDA is likely to support a war, with or without UN approval.

Saint Marcus, in the book, Band of Brothers, it is reported that the Dutch were overjoyed to be liberated by the Americans in WWII. The men of Easy Company contrasted that with the sullen resentment of the French.

I am not surprised that Holland will be there with us while France will again assume their usual stance of smug superiority.

	24-01-2003 22:19									#74
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quote: I am not surprised that Holland will be there with us while France will again assume their usual stance of smug superiority.

If France doesn't agree, then CDA is the only party that will be there with you, and that isn't an absolute majority. Tthe PvdA, which only has 2 (of the 150 seats) less then the CDA, will want the Security Council with them, now that includes France, doens't it?
So whether the whole NL government is in or not, still depends on France atm.

	25-01-2003 01:20									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Lemmy quote: I am not surprised that Holland will be there with us while France will again assume their usual stance of smug superiority. If France doesn't agree, then CDA is the only party that will be there with you, and that isn't an absolute majority. Tthe PvdA, which only has 2 (of the 150 seats) less then the CDA, will want the Security Council with them, now that includes France, doens't it? So whether the whole NL government is in or not, still depends on France atm.

This may be true, but the way things are going, it looks like Europe will have to pick sides on this one - to be with the US and the UK or to be with he French and the Germans.

	25-01-2003 02:37									#76
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There must be a diplomatic way to solve this problem with Saddam Hussein! The man is such a trustable person! I suggest we give him another warning, I'm sure he'll listen this time!

Besides that, it's not fair towards Russia and France, they have secret trade deals with Iraque! If we attack Iraque France and Russia will lose these deals! That's just not fair

Listen to the fair and good and wise reasons of these two countries!

The USA are evil! They have sneaky plans to get all the oil and might save the people of Iraque during that sneaky oil-attack! It would be so unfair if those people from iraque will be saved from a dictator that has used NBC weapons against them!

conclusion: Go USA!

	25-01-2003 03:46									#77
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy There must be a diplomatic way to solve this problem with Saddam Hussein! The man is such a trustable person! I suggest we give him another warning, I'm sure he'll listen this time! The USA are evil! They have sneaky plans to get all the oil and might save the people of Iraque during that sneaky oil-attack! It would be so unfair if those people from iraque will be saved from a dictator that has used NBC weapons against them! conclusion: Go USA!

I know there are several excellent reasons to applaud an attack on Iraq. I only will mention some:

• the world economy will sink a into deeper depression than it is now already; as a result many unrewarding companies will go bankrupt
  Yet it is obvious the world economy needs a thorough cleaning before it can grow healthy again.
  
• further deterioration of the economy will make it more unlike that Bush will be reelected in 2004
  
• it will hasten the decline of the USA as the world's hegemon power
  
• it will cut short the existence of Israel by several decades
  

	25-01-2003 10:15									#78
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quote: Originally posted by S. Kroeze I know there are several excellent reasons to applaud an attack on Iraq. I only will mention some: the world economy will sink a into deeper depression than it is now already; as a result many unrewarding companies will go bankrupt Yet it is obvious the world economy needs a thorough cleaning before it can grow healthy again. further deterioration of the economy will make it more unlike that Bush will be reelected in 2004 it will hasten the decline of the USA as the world's hegemon power it will cut short the existence of Israel by several decades So I agree that it is an excellent idea to attack Iraq! Yet it is a pity though, that you have a highly selective memory: On 22 September 1980 Iraq, led by our dear friend Saddam, invaded Iran. This war lasted until 20 Augustus 1988. My guess is more than a million people -probably more- died as a result. Our dear friend Saddam used many boy-toys (poison gas, rockets etc.), most of them produced by our other dear friends: France, Britain and the USA. A German company constructed a nuclear reactor for our beloved Iraqi friend, which was intended to be of use for the production of nuclear weapons. This was all done in consultation with our American friends. After all, one should help one's allies in their fight against the Muslim infidel...

And, S, Kroeze, you forgot to mention that Saddam checked with us before invading Kuwait. We said that we did not get involved in Arab disputes.

The next thing you know Saddam has 9 divisions on the Saudi border.
Bush I gets a phone call. "Sir, its the King of Saudi Arbia calling."

	25-01-2003 14:37									#79
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Cybershy´s posts are getting boring

Anyway, in response to Ned:

For better or worse, Holland has nearly always been a supporter of the US foreign policy. The position of the Dutch governement is a lot closer to Britain´s than Germany´s.

Yet, the people don´t see it that way. Polls show a vast mayority against a war without UN approval.

Though that won´t mean much, (CDA) politicians usually don´t listen to the people when it comes to international issues.

Although the CDA is the biggest party, it´s also one of the few supporting a strike against Iraq. As said:

SP is against. GL only in favor if the General Assembly supports a war. PvdA/D66 only in favor if the Security Council supports a war. VVD is against because it will hurt the economy, but will support it if the Security Council agrees on it. CU/SGP in favor, but they only have 5 seats combined. Not sure about the LPF, but they´ll probably support a war as well.

So without a Security Council approval, it´s unlikely our governement will support a war. Two possible scenarios in which we will support a war:

A. PvdA will back down and follow the CDA, in exchange for (say) more money for the health care system.
B. If the economy improves, or if it´s likely a war won´t hurt the economy much, the VVD will support a war.

Sadly...I think our country will support a war when it comes to it, against the will of the people.

	25-01-2003 19:27									#80
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quote: Yeah! Then I will be able to join a real intifada!

I hope I'll be stationed in Arnhem when I am in the ZOG military.

"let it go, old man. It's not worth dying for!"

	25-01-2003 19:33									#81
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Hm, better take you for a beer then when you are serving here

	25-01-2003 21:21									#82
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I've heard you got some good beers in Holland.
(though I am more of a vodka fan, myself)

	25-01-2003 22:28									#83
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Saint Marcus, et al., I personally truly hope that we can again reach a consensus at the SC about "next steps." The French and German position and the US/UK positions are not irreconcilable. Over the next few days, I believe the issue will come down to access to the scientists and U2 overflights. France and Germany might be pursuaded to signal Saddam that he had better cooperate on these two issues or else they too will join with the US and the UK.

	28-01-2003 16:07									#84
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I too hope we'll see a consensus, but I doubt it will happen.

And of course, Rumsfeld's remark about France and Germany didn't help much.