22-01-2003 04:30									#1
	Dutch elections (again) tomorrow: dilemma of a Eurocommie Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Okay, we are voting for the second time in a year tomorrow. Last May was fairly simple, I voted for the Socialist Party. During that elections the Social Democrats lost almost half of their seats in parliament.

Tomorrow it's more complicated. The Social Democrats are looking, if the polls are right, at a miraculous resurrection. They have a good shot at getting to be the largest party, bypassing the Christian Democrats who were sure, three weeks ago, to easily surf into a coalition with the Liberals (right wing over here). So I knew I would be voting Socialist again.

But now the Social Democrats have a chance to become the largest party and thereby keeping the dreaded conservatives out of government I keep thinking that I should vote for them, even though I vowed never to vote for them again.

It's now 12.30 AM and I'll be voting at 8 AM, so I only have 7 1/2 hours to decide and I have to sleep during that time too

What to do, what to do... follow my heart and vote Socialist or vote tactically, Social Democrats (nothing socialist about them anymore)?

	22-01-2003 04:41									#2
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Ohh the dreaded tactacle vote .. been there a few times, in Lib/Con seats where Labour has no chance.

If you vote Social Democrats, then there lead depends on your views, if they don't move to the left, you can bury them in the next election (next week is that ?? ha ha ha ha).. so you are actually putting pressure on them to lean in your direction.

You can look at it the other way, and say if everybody who were socialist voted socialist, then they would probably do astoundingly well ..

Personally, id rather live with a pliable government, than a conservative one .. but thats my personaly opinion.

	22-01-2003 04:43									#3
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quote: (next week is that ?? ha ha ha ha)

You know about Dutch politics?

Man, we sunk even deeper than Italy

	22-01-2003 04:46									#4
	Suffering from ads?

quote: If you vote Social Democrats, then there lead depends on your views, if they don't move to the left, you can bury them in the next election (next week is that ?? ha ha ha ha).. so you are actually putting pressure on them to lean in your direction.

Wish that was true. If they form a coalition with the Christian Democrats (and it looks like they have to) they'll have to compromise and therefore move to the right (even more).

I can't believe I was an active member during the late 70's and 80's

	22-01-2003 04:47									#5
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Heeij, speaking as a conservative, vote Socialist.

I hope the reverse psychology helps.

	22-01-2003 04:52									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Heeij, speaking as a conservative, vote Socialist. I hope the reverse psychology helps.

Never, I repeat, NEVER would I vote conservative. I vowed to never become a cynical egoist while I'm still alive...

	22-01-2003 04:57									#7
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Democrats losing ground everywhere in Europe should help you making your mind

	22-01-2003 04:58									#8
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Vote Social Democrat .. as I say you can withdraw your vote the next time if they stuff.

Frankly im pleased we have first past the post in this country, and suffer very rarely from coalition government. I can see how irritating it is to choose between a slightly right wing, or completely right wing .. still, there is no choice really ..

I share your complete contempt for conservatives, however, Id probably want to point out to ned, Euro Conservatism, is not the same as American conservatism .. in the US, the main 2 parties (on a euro model) are right wing .. just different shades of it. Euro right wing tends to be much more jingoistic, nationalistic ..

	22-01-2003 04:58									#9
	Re: Dutch elections (again) tomorrow: dilemma of a Eurocommie Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Hueij The Social Democrats are looking, if the polls are right, at a miraculous resurrection. They have a good shot at getting to be the largest party, bypassing the Christian Democrats who were sure, three weeks ago, to easily surf into a coalition with the Liberals (right wing over here).

Anything happen to precipitate this turn of events?

	22-01-2003 05:03									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Datajack Franit Democrats losing ground everywhere in Europe should help you making your mind

It's not the Democrats I'm worried about, it's the Christian Democrats. I don't want to return to 1950's values, shops closed on Sundays, illegal soft drugs, turning back our euthanasia laws, our abortion laws.

Nor their xenophobia and putting the burden of present economic hardships on the shoulders of the people that have no voice, people on wellfare, the homeless, the sick...

	22-01-2003 05:10									#11
	Re: Re: Dutch elections (again) tomorrow: dilemma of a Eurocommie Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Anything happen to precipitate this turn of events?

Had to look up that one in the dictionary

No, nothing. Only that the Social Democrats came up with a young, good looking, smooth talking new leader a couple of months ago. Like Blair...

It looks like he takes his new won votes from the Greens and the Socialists though The Socialists looked like they were doubling again but now it looks they only win moderately

Maybe i should post pics of the leader of the greens (man, she is cute) or the runner up of the Socialists (she looks devastating in her tight leather pants)

	22-01-2003 05:13									#12
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go and elect yourself
Go for it You can do IT.

re "Never, I repeat, NEVER would I vote conservative. I vowed to never become a cynical egoist while I'm still alive..." and "the Christian Democrats. I don't want to return to 1950's values, shops closed on Sundays, illegal soft drugs, " You are doomed.

Well, you can pray for realy big tidal wave. 'Cose this year elections in Europe looks bad in every country.

	22-01-2003 05:17									#13
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quote: go and elect yourself

Hehe... I was active in the Social Democrat party during the 80's, when it was still a left wing party, but once I found out how politics work (it has nothing to do with ideals, only with personal ambitions) I couldn't be bothered anymore...

quote: You are doomed.

That goes without saying

	22-01-2003 05:29									#14
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To be honest I just do not understand your problem.

In my opinion J.Cohen would be a better Premier than Balkenende. Yet I think one should make a choice based on political ideas not on personalities.
As long as the so-called 'Liberals' (who are actually Liberal Conservatives) and Christian Democrats (who are actually Christian Conservatives) will not obtain a majority, you can be reasonably sure that the Social Democrats will be part of the next government.
I do not understand your fears about shops closed on Sundays, abortion etc., as long as the Christian parties do not obtain a majority, something which will never happen again.

So in my view it doesn't matter as long as you do not vote either VVD, LPF or CDA.
I will vote for SP, Agnes Kant. I was rather disappointed about the performance of Marijnissen(SP).
Would you support the attack on Iraq and the policy of Bush and Sharon?

quote: Anything happen to precipitate this turn of events?

The new party leader of the Social Democrats (PvdA), Wouter Bos, is an excellent debater, quite young, a truly nice person and very good-looking, the ideal son-in-law.
He has learnt that people like politicians that do not act like they rule this country, which was the aura of his predecessor.

	22-01-2003 05:34									#15
	Re: Dutch elections (again) tomorrow: dilemma of a Eurocommie Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Hueij What to do, what to do... follow my heart and vote Socialist or vote tactically, Social Democrats (nothing socialist about them anymore)?

O bugger, now I have that song in my head.

"Stem voor, Stem SP!"

o_O

Go for SP, I don't want Cohen to become PM. Not that I think he'd be a bad one, but I don't want him out of Amsterdam =)

	22-01-2003 05:34									#16
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quote: I do not understand your fears about shops closed on Sundays, abortion etc. as long as the Christian parties do not have a majority, something which will never happen again.

Worst case scenario: VVD, CDA and LPF need a fourth party to keep the left out... entering of the Christian Union. Welcome back 1950...

	22-01-2003 05:35									#17
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quote: "Stem voor, Stem SP!"

Well, that song is a reason NOT to vote for them

	22-01-2003 05:47									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij Worst case scenario: VVD, CDA and LPF need a fourth party to keep the left out... entering of the Christian Union. Welcome back 1950...

The Christian Union isn't that bad. They care more about the environment than most left-wing parties.
My guess is they care even more about it than GroenLinks, which is in my view mainly a multi-culti party.

	22-01-2003 05:53									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij Never, I repeat, NEVER would I vote conservative. I vowed to never become a cynical egoist while I'm still alive...

I'm sorry Hueij, this is not what I meant.

	22-01-2003 12:37									#20
	Re: Dutch elections (again) tomorrow: dilemma of a Eurocommie Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Hueij It's now 12.30 AM and I'll be voting at 8 AM

So...what did you vote?

Or are you postponing it to later today? =)

	22-01-2003 13:05									#21
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For that matter, who won?

	22-01-2003 13:40									#22
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Can't you vote Commie, Eurocom?

	22-01-2003 15:11									#23
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won't the socialists support a soc.dem. government? if so you can still vote socialist and be tru to yourself

	22-01-2003 15:12									#24
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the Social democrats are about to win?

Very Vell, Very Vell. ANOTHER victory for the ZOG


you dutch people know what I am talking about.

	22-01-2003 15:32									#25
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Hueij, I think a CDA/VVD/D66 coalition is more likely, if the number of seats allow it. The VVD and CDA are very hesitant to go with the LPF again. Actually, CDA/VVD/D66 would be my favourite somewhat realistic government, since VVD/D66 or PvdA/VVD/D66 are rather unfeasible.

So just vote D66, damnit! I feel so lonely, politically...

	22-01-2003 15:36									#26
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus For that matter, who won?

Not known yet, the voting is today.

quote: Can't you vote Commie, Eurocom?

Technically, you can, but they have pretty much zero chance of gaining enough votes for a seat.

quote: won't the socialists support a soc.dem. government? if so you can still vote socialist and be tru to yourself

On certain points it's probable, but the problem is that the social democrats will have to form a coalition with the christian democrats, so they'll follow a rather centrist course instead of the leftist one that the SP wants.

	22-01-2003 22:12									#27
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Go for the SP Hueij!

The PvdA does need a GOOD Socialist Party next to them to keep them in check in case they will form a coalition with the Christian Democrats.

It looks like a CDA/VVD coalition will not make it, even if the CDA will be the largest party.

The LPF cannot be in the next government, that will surely ruin the country, and the CDA knows it.

The last year there has been so much talk about politicians having disrespect for the voters. If the LPF will be allowed to take seat in government again, then surely the **** will hit the fan. The country will fall in chaos, no doubt about it. Only the LPF voters will be happy, the other 95% of the voters, no matter what they voted will be disgusted.

For left wing voters it should not be too difficult conceirning the 'strategic' vote.
IMO, there are basically two possible outcomes of the election:
#1: CDA and VVD will retain a majority in parliament, and then they will continue their Government, no matter if the PvdA will be the largest party or not.

#2: CDA and VVD losse their majority, and then the only possible coalition will be CDA/PvdA. They will have almost equal seats, so the question which is bigger is only a minor issue.

So, voting strategicly for the PvdA will not be a big deal. Vote for the party that has your true support.

	22-01-2003 22:23									#28
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germanos,
That's assuming PvdA will still get enough votes to form a 2-party coalition with the CDA. If a 3-party coalition is inevitable, you can bet no left-wing parties will be part of it...

As long as the CDA is the biggest party, they have the initiative in forming a government and if a coalition with the PvdA fails for whatever reason, they will undoubtably go for a right-wing combo with VVD and D66/ChristenUnie/LPF. If PvdA is the biggest and a PvdA-CDA coalition fails, they could still opt for a left-wing/centre combo without CDA (SP/GroenLinks/D66/VVD ()). Although I must admit that wouldn't be easy to realize, it still beats a CDA/VVD cabinet IMHO.

Plus, the biggest party gets to choose the Prime-Minister and Balkenende did a piss poor job last time...

So it *is* a tough choice for left-wing voters like Hueij and me. But I went for GroenLinks after all

Last edited by Locutus on 22-01-2003 at 22:29

	22-01-2003 22:23									#29
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D66?

	22-01-2003 22:27									#30
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Beforehand, i knew i would either vote for SP or GroenLinks...i some online tests, and each time GroenLinks came out as first, and SP as 3rd, so no doubt for me there.