23-01-2003 03:01									#1
	What should Madrid build next (please give arguments)? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Regardless of what goes in the queue after the spearman, the next thing after that will be a worker. We just need to either build an improvement or some military units between now and then so that we can bulk up Madrid's population and food stores before popping out the worker (which reduces our pop again).

Ideally, I want to get Madrid to the point where it's either wavering between 2 and 4 pop while pumping out settlers or wavering between 3 and 5 pop while pumping out settlers.

Getting Madrid up there will be an issue due primarily to happiness, so building a temple might be nice (though we can always just station a second spearman in the city and raise the lux slider to 10% if we go to 5 pop).

A barracks would be great for building veteran rather than regular military units, a nice thing to be doing with GoW warriors looming about (though there's no guarantee they'll still be around and I'm pretty sure their conscript warrior and regular warrior are both very alone and not anything of a real threat).

A granary might be nice for both working our population up to that level and then rebounding from the pop-hit whenever we build the next settler. A granary lets a city become a far more efficient settler factory than we can currently muster. Problem is that a granary is the most expensive of these options and would greatly delay that worker (though we could do the worker first if we're going to build a granary - then have the worker build a MINE or two on the hills out of Madrid before moving on).

2 more spearmen might not be a bad idea either, or perhaps a spearman and 2 more warriors. They'd all be regulars, but sheer numbers might not be a bad idea with barbarians getting worse and our settlers needing protection.

Please offer arguments and votes.

Togas and I will obviously make the final decision on this issue, but input from the team would be highly valuable concerning this

	23-01-2003 03:06									#2
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Personally, I'm torn between temple and barracks, with granary being something to consider as well....

I think temple is probably the best option (especially given our discount) for REXing because Granary is so much more expensive and barracks, while I had originally wanted it, probably isn't as critical is raising Madrid's population so that settler production goes faster. Of course, it would go A LOT faster if we had a granary, but perhaps that's what Pamplona should build?

	23-01-2003 03:06									#3
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The Military solution

we need some defense for any possible sneak attacks.

	23-01-2003 03:12									#4
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I'd go for barracks too... We should start building veteran units as soon as possible. And we'll need it later to upgrade our warriors to swordsmen when the iron tiles will be connected.

	23-01-2003 03:13									#5
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I would support (in order of preference)

Barracks
Grainery
Military Units - particularly warriors that can be upgraded with our excelent finances.

	23-01-2003 03:23									#6
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I'm favoring the Barracks solution myself, but we need that worker.

An Alternate plan, build the worker and start on the Granary, have the Worker build a road at the Game and then move to the other Forest tile (SE of the Game) and cut down the forrest. THis will give 10 sheilds to the Granary build. Then he can start roading & Irrigating towards Barcelona from that point.

Or you can do that right after the Barracks is built. But that's one option.

Eta Tamali

	23-01-2003 03:28									#7
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I would support (in order of preference)

Workers
Temple
Barracks
Military units

	23-01-2003 03:29									#8
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If the next in queue after that is a worker then I would go for barracks now.

	23-01-2003 04:06									#9
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And now for a completely different take on it...

I say Temple.

1) It will be completed the most quickly, so we get the worker more quickly. Arnelos is right, building the worker first will ultimately slow REX down.
2) It will allow us more flexibility in military unit duties, if one less garrison in necessary in Madrid.
3) It will speed the cultural expansion of Madrid, connecting with Pamplona, and starting to "draw the line" across the continent that we desire.

	23-01-2003 04:07									#10
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Temple is what I'm leaning toward as well... but that barracks is still tempting.

	23-01-2003 04:39									#11
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With a war very likely to come I choose for safety first and luxuries later.

First barracks, second spearman. (Once GoW's army has reached us I hope both be built, otherwise we have to build up a strong REGULAR military and build the barracks later.

I NEVER push up the luxuries until the need such that no other choice is left: like in a continuing war, gov = dem and warweariness is catastrophic.

Aidun

	23-01-2003 05:06									#12
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A war very likely?

Somehow I think not. GoW has 1 conscript warrior and 1 regular warrior near us. The rest of whatever forces they have are likely all the way on the other side of the continent. If their score is any indication, they have only 2 cities.

War? I really doubt it.

If we build a barracks immediately rather than waiting for more REX to be done, it will be to help us with fighting the barbarians and to save a few shields from re-building veteran spears to replace our regulars down the line.

	23-01-2003 06:58									#13
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Both a temple and barracks are needed eventually, but this "filler" in our queue will be better served with a barracks FIRST, so that any units we happen to create afterwards (escorts for Settlers, warriors, horsemen) will be improved.

I do not believe we will be going to war soon, but the barracks is a necessary improvement ... it's long overdue. Dejon's family has been training our troops in a FIELD for a thousand years! Isn't it time we built them a suitable facility to train our men?

--Togas

	23-01-2003 08:38									#14
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I would disagree with the sentiment that war is going to come to us in the near (or even somewhat distant) future. I would personally support a temple most, but a barracks is certainly a very viable, reasonable, and suitable choice. Indeed, our brave warriors could use some respect!

	23-01-2003 14:37									#15
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We have many good defense bonus in our surroundings (mountains, hills, jungle, rivers). Thus, we don't need veterans units at the moment, so we dont need barracks urgently.

I think a Temple will be the best choice for Madrid :

1. Enlarge our borders, connecting Madrid & Pamplona soon.

2. Helping Madrid to growth faster (delaying disorder).

3. Increasing our culture output.

After the Temple, and next bulding a worker, Madrid could build quickly somme spear or warriors, before building barracks, to form a virtual border at the North/North-West of Madrid and on the jungle (near the ND border), to survey the possible arrival of hostile troops. This will give us the time to switch our productions to military units if needed.

The defensive/survey border should be set soon, with Madrid becoming a Military units factory in a mid-term future. With a temple, two garrison units and a luxury, Madrid could reach the 6 pop easily and have an impressive shield output.

Last edited by astrologix on 23-01-2003 at 14:52

	23-01-2003 18:06									#16
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I am currently doing an EXHAUSTIVE analysis of what the difference between each option would be over a 30-turn period in terms of building military units and settlers.

So far, temple looks like the best option because you essentially get 2 regular spearmen for every 1 veteran spearman I could produce under the barracks plan. The reasons why are:

1. That 10 shield additional cost (quite minor)
2. Far more importantly, I can fluctuate the city size between 3 and 5 or 4 and 6 with a temple, but I have to do it between 1 and 3 or 2 and 4 at best with a barracks - the difference in production is rather substantial and builds over time (pun intended).

The option I'm currently checking out is granary, worker, temple, then settler+spearmen combos.... it has the possibility of being rather effective, but there's a delay built in, of course. It means delaying 1.5 cities immediately in return for making up for them BIG TIME over the following 50-60 turns. Considering that we have 15 city sites left to cover, this may not be such a bad idea... only problem would be if we think a substantial number of those city sites are in jeopardy if we don't cover one more than we otherwise would in the next 15 turns or so.

I'm still doing the detailed analysis... I'll post the results when it's done.

As for the barracks, it's a crappy option REX-wise. From what little I've seen so far, here's what I can tell you:

Length of Cycle for Building Spearman+Settler under each plan:
Barracks Plan - 11 turns
Temple Plan - 8 turns (generally 8 turns, but you have to throw in a 9-turn cycle occassionally to make up for food loss in an 8-turn cycle)
Granary Plan: takes longer to warm up (first cycle is 10 turns), but levels out to 8 turns.

The Granary+Temple plan, however.... now that I'm still working on, but it means A LOT more trade over time. It's warm-up time is longer for obvious reasons, but it may be worth it... still working on that.

	23-01-2003 19:10									#17
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Does all this means that the Rexing like mad period is over ?

God news then

	23-01-2003 19:41									#18
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT Does all this means that the Rexing like mad period is over ? God news then

Is it good news? I don't think Pamplona can handle it alone. Barcelona doesn't have the resources to contribute at this point.

	23-01-2003 20:02									#19
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We need to connect our (almost) 4 cities; it is the best defence. Adding cities and connecting them will be easier when the core is connected. Some horsemen will protect easily cities connected. It is all what I mean.

	23-01-2003 20:13									#20
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This is one of the many reasons I'm in favour of the Temple - we get another worker faster. I think we should also build a worker in Pamplona to triple our workforce.

The new Madrid worker can improve a tile near Madrid and then road to Barcelona. The new Pamplona worker should road to Madrid. And the current worker should road to the next city site in Cow Valley.

Togas - as much as my family would LOVE a barracks, as your Most Trusted Advisor, I have to recommend what I think is best for Spain, long-term.

Why are there only 12 votes? We have a team membership of 28! We will be a tyranny for awhile (depotism, monarchy), so we had better enjoy every opportunity to voice our opinions! Vote!

	23-01-2003 20:22									#21
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*Torquemada thinking : I should have a look at all those citizens never voting to express their sincere agreement with the Despot .*

	23-01-2003 20:48									#22
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Everyone, please go read THIS THREAD I just posted about this issue.

Thank You

	23-01-2003 20:51									#23
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quote: Originally posted by dejon This is one of the many reasons I'm in favour of the Temple - we get another worker faster. I think we should also build a worker in Pamplona to triple our workforce.

I would also prefer to build another worker soon in both cities. Lord Togas has decreed that Pamplona will stay in REX for the time being though.

However, FYI, it would be possible to get a worker in 1990 BC. That is only four turns after the settlers are produced. I need to run a scenario to see the affects on growth, but just to look at it, I think the city would be growing to size 3 on that same turn. Therefore, it would not put so low as to have to start again from scratch with REX.

	23-01-2003 22:54									#24
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quote: Originally posted by ruby_maser I would also prefer to build another worker soon in both cities. Lord Togas has decreed that Pamplona will stay in REX for the time being though.

Workers are critical to our expansion plans and should be slipped into REX plans as allowable.

--Togas

	23-01-2003 23:01									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Togas Workers are critical to our expansion plans ... --Togas

... as well as to our defence plans.

	24-01-2003 03:06									#26
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I have not voted as I am not yet convinced of our best options.