23-01-2003 09:12									#1
	Foreign Affairs: Chosing Sides Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Should we side with Lux or ND in the (probably) coming war?

Arguments:

Lux: They have been the best trading partner so far. ND gets the earlier UU. Taking ND would extend us more towards Roleplay. We have a nonagression pact with Lux until 1725 BC (so they didn't attack our capital).

ND: They might have roleplay on their side. Lux is closer to our capitol. Lux might have good resources.

	23-01-2003 09:14									#2
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From the Arguments I posted, it appears allying with Lux is better, but please discuss...

	23-01-2003 12:06									#3
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I must disagree with everyones idea that Lux is the most trust worthy.

Very early on, they deliberately violated our borders. Not only did they do this, but THEY DID NOT LEAVE! If you remember, they went parallel to our capitol, through our border, before leaving. They were trying to egg us on to an early war, just like they are doing to ND now. They have now spent three turns inside ND borders. How is this "trustworthy"?

Additionally, I think that they have made contact with another team and have not told us.

Why?

Because of something Calc said in the general forum:

quote: quote: quote: Originally posted by flash9286 im not even in Vox anymore or this entire ptwdemo game But you used to be. And even if you didnt intentionally mean that, you know better than us that numbers does not necessarily guarantee better team. I think your ex-team is doing quite solid btw... but then again its too early to tell. We'll see.

I think that Lux is in contact with Vox. How else is he going to know that Vox is "doing quite solid"?

ND, on the other hand, has not violated anybody territory, even though they are the "expansionist" civ. Their trade deals have been fair (we gave them 20 gold for a tech) and their extreme democratic process seems to favor a less agressive posture than anybody else. As much as I detest the fact that there is a non-poly team in a poly game, I feel they are the most trustworthy. Weather or not this means they are the team we should side with has yet to be seen. This brings up another point.

We are Mercs. We should fight for the side that is going to give us the most (and give it up front). We should remain neutral, working for ourselves and not get involved until the odd man out (most likely ND) comes crawling to us for a contract to save their sorry ass.

	23-01-2003 13:14									#4
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I wrote this list up at work.
It actually repeats some of what has already been said above.

Lux

(Why to attack them first)
They have been the only team to actually invade our cultural border. (Sure we did it to RP, but that was Mad King Donegeals fault)
They only have the one horse resource that ND should be able to deny them.
They are much closer to us and can reach our core cities easier.
They have lied to us (They told us they planted their 2nd city to stop ND expansion when really it was to get the horse resource)
They have shown little respect to us with their expansion? right into our preferred territory.
They have an iron deposit close by. To build riders, we need a secure safe source. This can be achieved easier by taking it from Lux. It's still not showing in the map yet so this is only an assumption.
Lux has better land than ND, and it is easier to defend. If we take land from ND, our empire will be long and thin. Lux territory will allow us to group our cities better.
We believed that Lux jumped in bed with RP very early in the game. We cannot guarantee that this is still happening....they are still trading with them.
I think it would be cool to kick Trips ass and to see the first team to set up in this game, be the first knocked out.

(Why not to attack them)
They seem to want good relations with us and participate in trade (But this might be a function of wanting us as an ally)
Their diplomatic relations seem to be cooling towards our traditional enemy..Roleplay
Our Non-aggression pact forbids war until 1725bc..Which is good or bad depending on your perspective.

ND

(Why to attack them first)
Their UU arrives before Lux?s. It is almost an equivalent to ours (1 defence point on a offensive unit is not a lot).
######### This is by far the most important point in this entire list ########
They are the largest Civ thanks to a goodie hut settler.
They are courting our traditional enemy in an attempt to make them an ally.
We get better access to "prune" Roleplay if we decide to take them on before turning on Lux.

(Why not to attack them)
They are willing to trade and seem to playing very defensively..(perhaps just waiting until they get their UU)
They seemed to be the most supportive team for a quad research pact
They desperately want us an ally..and perhaps we can extort more favourable terms from them than we could with Lux. (We are mercs afterall .. at least one of them will have to pay us for the use of our forces ? can you say "tech embargo on RP" :-)
Lux will have to overextend themselves to take ND out? This would be the best time to take Lux on..and we may never have a better chance.
Their cities are within mountains, which makes them harder to get to.
We will be over-stretching ourselves to take them out entirely, leaving our core cities open to a possible backstabbing attack by Lux?or even Roleplay
If we are successful in taking cities so far from our capital, how can we defend them.
They have easy access to horses which we could not take.

	23-01-2003 16:26									#5
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ND has been telling Roleplay all kinds of stuff, and forwards our pms to them. They tell us they want to work with us and then pm the other teams that they want to form an alliance against us.

To my knowledge Lux has not been two-faced anywhere near the level of Roleplay and ND.

	23-01-2003 17:40									#6
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We really need to scout Lux territory ASAP.
And we need to know the iron deposits.

I want to go after the iron.
The closest civ.
Then take on the other one almost immediately.
And before either get their UU's.

Our information is limited, but at this stage, I would vote to take Lux only if our tacticians believe we will still have time to turn on ND before they get their UU.

I would like to see any deal we negotiate, to include some form of pact against RP. That will keep RP out of the war and isolate them. (ie a trade embargo). And exclude any non-aggression pacts.
Especially if we take Lux out first, as we will want to turn on ND almost immediately.

	24-01-2003 07:16									#7
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Lux diplomatically asks us to join in a war against NDG in about 15 turns...

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...698#post1656372

	24-01-2003 15:09									#8
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	24-01-2003 22:22									#9
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Chatted with borc in the chatroom today.

He said his team was very happy with the following offer:

We give them Horseback Riding now and they AGREE to NOT trade it to Roleplay.

They will give us Mathematics the turn they finish researching it and then we each research either Commerce or Construction and trade techs.

He said they have gone farther south than our western warrior and have found two Iron resources and a large clump of Ivory.

	28-01-2003 07:33									#10
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By the way, Lux lied to us. I think that if we are going to war, we should ally with ND.

	29-01-2003 03:13									#11
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I voted for war with ND, but after reading how Lux lied about not selling a tech, I have to change to war with Lux. Both sides are treacherous, we must be suspicious the whole game.