23-01-2003 11:02									#1
	Temples Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

When do you build them?
When I found a city, I build
- a warrior for defense
- a 2nd warrior for exploration
- a settler for expansion
a 3rd warrior to keep my peaple content
a temple (maybe a market place would be better?)
and then:
another settler for expansion
or
a diplo for defense purposes (enemy bribing) every 4th or 5th city
or
a trireme
or
caravans caravans caravans caravans

I need those temples for my later Fundy phase - they bring me a lot of ca$h.

	23-01-2003 15:34									#2
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The 1g/turn upkeep for a Temple renders it a major nuisance in the early game - reserve them for those cities that you wish to grow - your capital and SSC - Fundy is a Loooong way away - building a Temple when martial law will suffice is simply wasteful.

SG[1]

	23-01-2003 18:15									#3
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This is for MP (deity), since in SP, you get whatever wonders you want so it's too different and happiness is an anoyance rather than something that must be carefully managed Or in less than deity for those that haven't learned to manage happiness yet.

In my major cities as soon as they stop spitting settlers and have enough units in defense. (this occurs when the core cities are too far from your expanding area and it would take too long to get the settlers there. Your border cities take over building settlers. (unless you're pinned in and have to go to sea to expand) This allows you to prepare for caravan spitting while waiting to finish developing trade. Unless you get a few breaks beelining to trade, there should be 4-5 turns where you have nothing to build that's more important.

Then around when you build the 10th or 11th city because you're going to start needing them soon. (provided you haven't built HG) And as your core expands so does the number of cities spitting caravans.

Then around the 15th or 16th city (maybe as early as your 13th depending on relative distance from your cap), you're rushbuying the temples the turn after your city is founded and revolts (despite a unit sent with the settler).

	23-01-2003 18:49									#4
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I build temples when I need them. In SP, that means if the city keeps spitting out Settlers, and I have HG early and MC a bit later, I might not ever need a temple in some cities.

I work pretty hard, early on, to keep most cities at size 2 so that I don't need to be rushing temples in any but the key cities.

	25-01-2003 21:23									#5
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i follow rahs train of thought for MP games, but i think i build temples before he does, sometimes sacraficing units in the process....

many times i expand to quickly and thus need temples b/c my one unit isn't going to quell disorder

	25-01-2003 22:54									#6
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

My basic builder strategy calls for prioritizing temples (and the enabling tech) fairly high in order to start accumulating culture. Garrison units come from older cities, so a newly founded city can start off with a defensive unit in place. By the time a city is templed, it's ready to start churning out settlers and workers in alternation with military units.

	26-01-2003 00:09									#7
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yes....but your talking civ3 here

	26-01-2003 00:32									#8
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Culture... yeah, must be talking Civ III. Boy is he in the wrong forums.

Yeah, I'm like Rah and War4ever... It's all based on the number of cities, and what else is worth building. I try to get along without them as long as I can, but it gets to a point that you have to have them to continue expanding.

	26-01-2003 00:34									#9
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often i build temples too early, but dammit i hate surprise unhappiness

	27-01-2003 15:58									#10
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Try looking at the 'happiness' tab - that will normally give a good indication of when the 'surprise unhappiness' is about to strike...

SG[1]

	27-01-2003 18:36									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Try looking at the 'happiness' tab - that will normally give a good indication of when the 'surprise unhappiness' is about to strike... SG[1]

I'm sure he looks at the happines tab.

But when you place 4 cities down the same turn, after the 10th city, you can't always seem to predict quickly which city is going to take the unhappiness hit. You have a good idea, but it doesn't always go the way you think. Distance and order of build impact it, but I've seen so many exceptions that I don't know the hard and fast rule. Something for the game geeks to look at.

	27-01-2003 23:37									#12
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I have always thought I could predict somewhat regularly which would boot their mayor by using the happiness tab. The cities with red heads in its happiness screen will revolt before cities which are blue bloods. At least, that is the rule of thumb I use.

Maybe that is more micro management than you MP'ers have time for; or maybe, it is something I am mistaken about...like the sneak attack bonus, which surely must exist, in spite of tests to the contrary. That is, it may only be an observation.

Monk

	28-01-2003 01:04									#13
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Normally what you say is true, but when you place 4 cities the same turn, when you already have 10. It crosses the barrier to the next level of unhappiness. I've seen the 10th city, which was previously ok, take the hit, while the 13th city is OK. Even if you're looking at the attitude screen, the city may not have updated yet, and the city must be viewed to update the attitude advisor. These are the circumstances where I usually miss it and have a revolt.

AND you are 100% correct that it comes down to the amount of micro management necessary in the shortened timeframe given in MP.

	28-01-2003 01:25									#14
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One other thing I have observed about this phenomenon of which city/cities will revolt is the importance of arrows. Usually, I find the city with the most arrows--but other things being equal, red heads, etc--will NOT be the one to revolt. In any case, it only seems prudent to update, and then check the city list after laying down a new city... much less four new cities on a turn...and make any needed adjustments.

I fail to see how getting a "surprise" revolting city is anything other than sloppiness...a form of the "...I didn't know it was loaded" defense. If you fail to check, you cannot object!! (with apologies to J Cochran)

But, my experience is solely with SP. Results in MP may be very different.

Monk

	28-01-2003 01:40									#15
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Sloppy, maybe a little. Considerate definately. You shouldn't be checking your happiness during your movement phase, only during the other peoples turn. You review as many cities as you have time for, to check possible build micro management decisison (.i.e. If I buy up two shield to twenty, my seven shields a turn is maximized, or I don't need the all the shields, might as well take food or arrows), possible growth causing it to revolt., checking possible caravan delivery cities. I always check the attitude screen quickly but it's annoying when it isn't updated. You don't always have time to cycle through all your ciites. (especially if you're squeezing a smoke in the garage in in between turns)

RAH

	28-01-2003 02:16									#16
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You guys have a set of rules that you all agree to. The time constraint must be a *itch to play within.

It takes far less time to do this than to type this: open any city, press the up arrow key, as all your cities whiz by they are updated; check happiness screen...now you know which are going to revolt. Are you implying there is not enough time to do that??

cough...cough...cough

Have you considered using a patch or nico-gum during your games?? If you still need something oral, try an unlit cigar. Believe me, this reformed smoker understands the need.

Monk

	28-01-2003 02:29									#17
	Inflate your Upload Space

well thanks for the vote of confidence rah, and yes i do check all cities each turn.....but there are times that i still get revolts..... but i suppose if i took the worker off each time i would have fewer...

either way, its not always predictable, nothing like scrolling and making changes only to find a new redhead pop up at the end and have to go and change it again....gr.......

	28-01-2003 03:04									#18
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk It takes far less time to do this than to type this: open any city, press the up arrow key, as all your cities whiz by they are updated; check happiness screen...now you know which are going to revolt. Are you implying there is not enough time to do that??

You make the assumption that that's all you need to do between turns. WRONG.
1. Verifying caravan deliveries since we know demands change.
2. checking how many beakers you need for your next tech in case you want to tweak the science rate in each city.
3. calcing that you have enough caravans showing up at the wonder building city the exact turn you get the tech. (this isn't sp, where you can lollygag in terms of wonders)
4. Using the hut finder
5. Irritating or distracting your opponents with meaningless king chat
6. Review any attack scenarios (or defense)

Now around when you have 8-10 cities, you may only have 30-60 seconds between turns. Even less in a 3 man game. You don't have time for everything ever single turn. You sometimes have to set priorities.
(and if sometimes that's a smoke or grabbing another beer so be it) But even without that, you still sometimes have to make decisions on what you're going to spend that 30 seconds doing.

Heck If I had a buck for every time I've been caught trying to buy up and building that spy instead of the settler, or moving that city worker and not finishing before the turn changed, I'd be rich.

Rich

	28-01-2003 03:46									#19
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Well for sure you are... Rich!!

30-60 seconds!!

I had no idea. You guys certainly are brisk. I shudder to think how badly I would perform under those conditions. I'm not only old but disabled and it never occured to me you were playing under some kind of chess clock like that. I'm not so good that I can blast along without thinking...a lot. I'd be dogmeat in no time playing that way.

So let me amend my comments to specify they apply only to SP. Shouldn't be a problem for most people I think. If they wanted advise about MP play, they probably would ask there; but, maybe not. When you MP pros talk about things from that point of view, does it ever occur to you how confusing it might be for folk still in BC times only playing SP?? Most of the time it's not an issue; but there is nothing like a 30-60 second time limit on playing a turn in SP.

PS: I'm so out of the loop on this I thought we were talking about what you might do DURING your turn.

Monk

	28-01-2003 05:27									#20
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lol, the scary thing is some of us do it even faster than that Markus taught me how to wiz thru the screens, but you must be paying carefull attention...and even then freaky redheads appear.....

i will say this much, if you have good sci, and you manage your cities effectively, you will gain one-two sciences (later in the game) over your opponents.

lost beakers/cash etc can really hamper you.....

we play quickly, and its well known that if you dont', we don't like playing with you.....its not to be mean, its because it is an investment, and with that investment we want to have fun as well..

so yes, four player games are the best, every man for himself and try not to overthink when your making changes.....it really slows you down and causes you to make errors...

and if i had a dollar for every time i screwed up, i too could retire

and as for your turn.....we don't like priming cities either....

take a hit from the bong and pass it along hahahaha

	28-01-2003 18:33									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk 30-60 seconds!! I had no idea. You guys certainly are brisk. I shudder to think how badly I would perform under those conditions. I'm not only old but disabled and it never occured to me you were playing under some kind of chess clock like that. I'm not so good that I can blast along without thinking...a lot. I'd be dogmeat in no time playing that way. Monk

Just so you don't think we're all Speedfreaks, later in the game when everyone has 15-30 cities. (1600bc and later) and have quite a few units to move every turn, it does slow down. Then everybody's turns can take a few minutes each. And if you go on a attack frenzy, it can take up to 10 minutes. While 10 minutes is not the norm, it does happen on certain turns. There are legitimate reasons to take time.

Despite all our comments about speed, we do play with an unlimited time limit. Some players are slower than others, but if you're really consistently slow, (as war points out) you may have problems finding games on a regular basis.

With 4 people, everyone has to try to be considerate to keep the game moving. SO while it's fun to read and understand all the minutia about the game, some of it is not pratical for MP.

RAH

	28-01-2003 20:04									#22
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Wow! 30 seconds!!!!

I don't think I could get anywhere near that!

I too am amazed at that kind of speed.

SG[1]

	28-01-2003 21:46									#23
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Please keep in mind that that's early in the game. It does get longer.
Of course the first couple of turns can go around in less that 15 seconds.

	29-01-2003 06:26									#24
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unless i am moving an attack force or a bunch of vans, i can manage 30 cities in a min.....but then again, i am always moving caravans hahahahaha

	29-01-2003 23:57									#25
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Yes, the turns fly through till everyone has trade. I once tried to sneak a smoke in before that point and heard the chime announcing the start of my turn before I got out of the family room. opppppps.

RAH

	30-01-2003 11:13									#27
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@War4ever
Looking at your sig (I'm a chess player):
Sometimes you MUST sacrifice your queen ...

	30-01-2003 12:55									#28
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On a (slightly more) serious note - if any of us SPers were able to join in your sessions, would you bear with us long enough to let us learn the ropes?

SG[1]

	30-01-2003 18:52									#29
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By all means yes. We have played with quite a few people new to MP. (they have to start somewhere) You might have to deal with being teased as being the next Deity for the first few times. And with a little experience you'll be able to handle the flow. If after we feel you're experienced you still move too slow, don't worry, we're not shy, we'll tell you.

RAH
We're always looking for new blood. New players use different strats, and help us reflect on what we're doing.

	31-01-2003 14:52									#30
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thanks Rah - hope to get a broadband at home some time this year and then I shall petition SHMBO for a time slot to give it a whirl.

SG[1]