24-01-2003 13:54									#1
	Turn 40 Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

To be edited by the leaders of the Scholia.

Turn is already here. It went very quickly around this time. Important news: 6-6 from the Lookout Ridge a barbarian warrior showed up.

Status:
- Alphabet researched.
- 37 gold cash, +14 per turn.

Urgent questions:
- With what force attack the barbarian encampment?

Military:
- Slash goes 9, heading towards Vox.
- The barbarian camp to be attacked, according to Arrian

Economy:
- Worker finished irrigating, starts road.

Diplomacy:
- Alphabet offered to Vox (this time for real). Maybe our Diplomats should send a note to remind Vox to accept their part of the deal, not to lose one more turn?

Last edited by nbarclay on 24-01-2003 at 21:15

	24-01-2003 16:19									#2
	Re: Turn 40 Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph 6-6 from the Lookout Ridge a barbarian warrior showed up.

Whoa...
This probably means there's a barbarian encampment somewhere near Vox's capital, which means that they'll get some practice, and have veterans, maybe even elites.
This just adds another reason why building a barracks right now is justified. Speaking of which, the second chop goes to the barracks in Hurricane, right?

	24-01-2003 16:25									#3
	Put an end to popups!

I'd add this to the urgent questions: should we keep the research rate at 0% until the second tier of the tech deal is finished, or should we begin researching writing this turn?

Btw, AFAIK we still have two and a half green hours left. Am I right?

Last edited by Shiber on 24-01-2003 at 16:31

	24-01-2003 17:01									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Shiber, how come there has to be a camp near Vox's capital? 66 is to the West, while their capital is to the East...

I would definately go hunting for their camp... not because of possible veteran promotions (elites don't matter for warriors, they will need to be upgraded anyway), but because I don't want to give the 25 gold to Vox. Barbs should be a breeze on Chieftain...

DeepO

	24-01-2003 17:30									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by DeepO Shiber, how come there has to be a camp near Vox's capital? 66 is to the West, while their capital is to the East...

I'm sorry, I remember reading 9-9. The tireness must be getting to me.
Anyway, I agree that we should go hunt for it. 25 additional gold will help Vox upgrade their warriors to immortals, and we should make sure that this gold goes to us instead.
How do you suggest that we get there? Perhaps we should tell Grog to abandon Lookout Ridge and look for the barbarian encampment, and tell Slash to head to Lookout Ridge and replace him (he's currently 6 tiles away). Grog should still be able to see the Voxian worker after two turns of moving 6, if the worker moves 3, and from then it's 4 turns of blackness.
I don't suppose it would hurt that much to not be able to see the Voxian worker for several turns (nothing that 25 gold can't fix, anyway).

	24-01-2003 18:37									#6
	Put an end to popups!

Those brabs could explain a couple of the power surgess from Vox .
-
So are they roading the jungle tile? That is a waste of worker use IMHO...

	24-01-2003 19:18									#7
	Suffering from ads?

****

Barbs, huh?

That means we need to escort our settlers and garrison our cities. How irritating.

Definitely go for the encampment.

-Arrian

	24-01-2003 19:28									#8
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I'm not sure I want to harm the encampment. The barbarians are threatening the Voxian roadbuilding, which is generally positive. OTOH, at Chieftain (where this game apparently is settled), the combat bonus against barbs is huge and they could be used to train the voxian regular warriors before they get upgraded. Next question, with what force to attack the camp? Slash is still far, and I wouldn't want to leave the Lookout Ridge with Grog.

	24-01-2003 19:35									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph I'm not sure I want to harm the encampment. The barbarians are threatening the Voxian roadbuilding,

I disagree. The barbs are no threat to the Voxian warrior protecting the worker (due to the insane combat bonuses against barbarians), and as long as he's on the worker or one tile away from the worker, the worker is protected from barbs as well.
IMHO, allowing the barbarian encampment to live on will just provide the Voxian warrior with free training.

quote: Next question, with what force to attack the camp? Slash is still far, and I wouldn't want to leave the Lookout Ridge with Grog.

I don't see any other viable option. We'd have to stop watching/blocking the Vox warrior near the coast, but that's too much of a price to pay. Using Grog to kill the encampment while sending Slash to replace him will mean that Lookout Ridge will be left unoccupied for six turns, which isn't a big price to pay, considering the winning (and depriving Vox of) 25 gold that is just ahead of us if we choose to send Grog.

	24-01-2003 20:57									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

If we leave the ridge, it might be occupied when we get back?

Not a big deal to me, since didnt we agree to occupation of it, and that would be a diplo hit if they refused?


other advantage of killing the barb- confuses vox-"why did they withdraw the warrior? where did it go?" fun mind games there!

maybe they will seize the opportunity and send some immortals down prematurely.

	24-01-2003 21:09									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel If we leave the ridge, it might be occupied when we get back?

We've agreed that the ridge is ours. If they occupy it, that will be a violation of an agreement.
They won't move the warrior into the ridge without moving the worker along with it as well, because that would expose their worker (and since they've broken an agreement, we'd have a reason to attack). If they move both the warrior and the worker into the mountain, the worker becomes useless (I don't suppose they want to road that mountain... so as long as the worker is on the ridge, it's doing nothing but wasting maintenance money), and as soon as they move the worker (along with the warrior, for cover) off the mountain in order to continue to use it, we'd be able to take our old post back.
Of course there is the possibility that another Voxian warrior will show up and take a position on the mountain. That would be very provocative, and would take a lot of courage (and some stupidity, perhaps) from Vox to do. We are not prepared for this option, and we can only hope that Vox will not try it - for their sake, as well as ours.

To conclude, I suggest that we take this calculated risk and send Grog to kill the barbarian and his encampment.

	24-01-2003 21:10									#12
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I don't mind the single barb, he could provide some fun. Indeed, maybe he does go to the road, for pillaging, that would be a huge bonus for us (having that road disrupted, while not taking any diplo hit for it). But what are the chance that he won't simply go straight for the worker and his guard?

Camp: I don't want to abandon Lookout Ridge... Grog can move once Slash is near him, otherwise not. Vox would be wise to take it, as it can oversee the passage, and we need to keep an eye on what they are moving our way.

Slash: it seems he needs to go after the camp, or at least move closer to lookout ridge, but of course, what can happen on our Northern foggy side can also happen on our Western foggy side. I always thought of the incense desert as a perfect place for some barb camps...

DeepO

	24-01-2003 21:29									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

If Vox does make a grab for Lookout Ridge, Grog can go back to his old post on the hill 8-7 from the ridge until Vox agrees to let him back on the ridge. Or he could even sit right in the middle of their road, especially if he gets himself promoted to veteran or elite. I vote for going ahead and sending Grog on this little training (and gold collection) exercise.

	24-01-2003 21:32									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I agree that we should hunt for barbs. It will really mess with vox's head and net us 25 gold and a vet warrior

	24-01-2003 21:35									#15
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by DeepO Vox would be wise to take it,

They'd be violating a treaty, and exposing their future intents.

quote: Slash: it seems he needs to go after the camp, or at least move closer to lookout ridge,

It would take Slash 8 turns to reach the barbarian's current location. By then it could be too late - Vox might seize the opportunity and send their warrior currently guarding the worker to kill the encampment, knowing that we won't attack their worker because we're not interested in an early conflict.

quote: I always thought of the incense desert as a perfect place for some barb camps...

You have a point. We need to build more warriors.
I understand that the current plan is to finish the barracks in Hurricane and then start building veteran units. How long is it before the barracks is completed? (considering Hurricane's growth and the second chop's redirection to the barracks)

DeepO [/QUOTE]

	24-01-2003 21:39									#16
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Question: do we want to send Slash to hellp Grog, or do we want Slash to head south to garrison our new city so Zonk can go back and garrison Cyclone without a lot of time for barbarians to show up in our south? It may be a fluke, but in the test game, I did have barbarians show up at the southern tip of the continent.

By the way, yes, my plan is to have the second chop go to the barracks (and even if it wasn't before, it almost certainly would be now). Using it for our next settler would only speed up the settler by one turn (as opposed to two for the last chop) and we'd build the settler or worker after that at the same time either way.

	24-01-2003 21:49									#17
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Shiber You have a point. We need to build more warriors. I understand that the current plan is to finish the barracks in Hurricane and then start building veteran units. How long is it before the barracks is completed? (considering Hurricane's growth and the second chop's redirection to the barracks)

I think we can barely get the barracks in seven turns after this one, but it might be eight. That should make it reasonably safe to have the warrior currently in Hurricane take over in EotS and the one in EotS escort the settler after the one we're building (which won't be finished for seven turns after the one we're building now is, or nine turns from this turn).

	24-01-2003 22:44									#18
	Support Apolyton

So what do I do with Grog? Go for the encampment or not?

	24-01-2003 22:44									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Note to Vox regarding the delay: does this look okay?

quote: Greetings BetaHound and Vox Controli, In case you are wondering why our scholars did not come to teach you Alphabet with the last caravan [i.e. turn], Sir Ralph has the flu and forgot to send them before sending the caravan to you. They should reach you shortly, and we would appreciate it if you would accept them and quickly send back smiths to teach us Iron Working so that we can complete the second phase of our exchange of knowledge. Sincerely, The People of Gathering Storm Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist

	24-01-2003 22:45									#20
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph So what do I do with Grog? Go for the encampment or not?

I say go for it. Whoever gets it gets an advantage equivalent to more than half of a swordsman/immortal upgrade, and on this difficulty level, it should be easy enough.

	24-01-2003 22:48									#21
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

more warriors: do we really need them now? Hurricane could be left undefended for a few turns if it needs to, the warrior from EotS can reach any barb coming towards in 2 turns once the road is finished. It is a bit of a gamble, of course...

I wouldn't go building more warriors now, I prefer spears. Against barbs, a vet spear does not risk to lose, and spears can replace the defense of cities just as easily. We need to build other things first.

How to get the camp: one of the easiest solutions would be if we move Ouch, but this means we lose the shadow of Willy. Vox hasn't seen the barb yet, or Willy would move towards the camp. If we don't want to risk Ouch, maybe we can send a message to Vox, telling them of the camp, and asking to take it out, sharing part of the gold with us. Slash is kind of far away...

DeepO

	24-01-2003 22:51									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

BTW, seeing the screenies, I strongly oppose moving Grog. the Voxian guarding their warrior won't move off, but if he sees Grog moving, he could take advantage of the situation. If he's on the mountain, he'll see just as good as where he is now, so we're the ones that lose.

If he decides to attack the barb, it is risky on their side, and the chances of getting promoted are only 1/12... not that good.

DeepO

	24-01-2003 22:52									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Grog has the best (and very possibly only) chance of our getting the camp before Vox does.

	24-01-2003 22:54									#24
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by DeepO BTW, seeing the screenies, I strongly oppose moving Grog. the Voxian guarding their warrior won't move off, but if he sees Grog moving, he could take advantage of the situation. If he's on the mountain, he'll see just as good as where he is now, so we're the ones that lose. If he decides to attack the barb, it is risky on their side, and the chances of getting promoted are only 1/12... not that good.

If we move Grog 6, he's still right next to their worker. Would Vox dare move their warrior off their worker under such circumstances?

	24-01-2003 23:25									#25
	Tired of ads?

Kill the Barb !!!!

	24-01-2003 23:38									#26
	Full PM-box? Change here!

And Slash, and Zonk?

I think, with showing up of the barbarians, we must rethink our paper-thin defense strategy. Economy is not all, if a city getting sacked can cost us a citizen or a lot of gold or shields.

Thoughts?

Ah, btw, Nathan, could you please play this turn? I'm having a hard time to follow the threads, I feel awful. I may be able serve my PBEM games, because I get notified, but staring at the screen and follow the discussions hurts a lot. Thanks a lot.

	24-01-2003 23:38									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

What if we let that lonely barb as he is, and try to see what we can do about the camp? I doubt that neither Vox nor ourselves are going to get a promotion from that barb, defending or attacking. The best he could do right now is pillage that road, other then that there is real gain for him.

Vox doesn't see the barb yet, so moving Grog off now doesn't make sense, or he needs to head straight for the camp. Next turn, the barb will most likely move towards us, or the worker, with a bit of luck we can reach him from our mountain. But again, it won't matter much

What if the warrior from Hurricane goes up to shadow Willy, and we move Ouch? it should be relatively risk free. and if we start this turn, we hopefully outrun Willy

DeepO

	24-01-2003 23:42									#28
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Get well soon, Sir Ralph. The weekend is a sad time to spend in bed...

Zonk is the one from Hurricane, right? I don't think he'll get there in time...

I agree on the defense, tough, but there is hardly any space left for more military. Barracks are going to be needed, also very urgently in #7 (name for the horsecity yet?). After having 2 defensive cities up, all should get a lot easier

DeepO

	24-01-2003 23:55									#29
	Tired of ads?

I guess I can play this one.

Moving Grog straight toward the barbarian is probably the fastest way to the camp. We're taking a chance he'll be slowed down due to injury if the barb attacks him, but assuming this is Chieftain, it's not nearly as high a risk as it would be on higher levels. (And we'll get a defense bonus from the terrain.) If the barb ignores Grog, Grog can ignore him in return and head straight for the presumed location of the camp.

I don't want to pull the shadows off the Vox warriors because part of their job is to fall back to our cities and make sure we have two defenders if Vox tries something with their warriors (admittedly unlikely at this point but not impossible).

That still leaves the question of whether Slash should head north to reinforce Grog or south to serve as an extra city defender until we get our barracks up and producing. If Slash takes over garrisoning the horse city, that will free Zonk (the warrior currently in Cyclone) to go back to Cyclone to defend it.

	25-01-2003 00:03									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Team Scores:

71 (+1) Gathering Storm
82 (+1) Demogyptica
68 (+0) Glory of War
78 (+1) Role Play
65 (+1) Vox Controli
63 (+1) Lux Invicta
85 (+3) Legoland