24-01-2003 21:57									#31
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Japher, I come here to learn a bit of english as well so spell it right will ya

	24-01-2003 22:00									#32
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Ah, Paiktis, nice to see you took a break from your "reproofs" of people commentating about Greece and Turkey to pay my little thread a visit.

If France and Germany are the only ones in favor of keeping the EU going, does that not indicate maybe it SHOULD not continue?

How do the goals of Paris/Berlin have anything to do with Lisbon, madrid, Rome, Athens, London, ect?
Are they taking into account ALL of the EU members, or only doing what's best for them?

	24-01-2003 22:01									#33
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Chris62, true. But we can't form one now. Our laws are not good enough. Yet! As we speak, we are thinking of changing this. I hope they do change it. And we have good relations. And it's funny, because it's easy and it doesn't matter what we say, and it won't hurt relations.. pretty much so. But then again, we didn't pledge our loyalty to you, and you didn't for us . Maybe that will come in the next few years as we're thinking of forming some international combat troops.

And as for your question, I thought it was about relations all together. Now that I understood your question, I don't think there's too much good reasons to keep military alliances together with countries that aren't going along with the program. If you want some, you have to give some, pretty simple.

I think there's a lesson to learn here.. if you say something, you can't do the other thing.. so if you form military alliance, you have to respect it and not just pick up the fruits and benefits.

	24-01-2003 22:02									#34
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"According to the terms of the resolution, Iraq already is in material breach."

Which does not change the UN Charter. Where does it authorize attack, occupation and "regime change"?

"But it won't happen, I mean how stupid idea is that? STUPID!"

Remains to be seen. How realistic and how stupid the idea is depends on a lot of other things in the institutional balance. We might say goodbye to the rotating presidency if, for example, some powers of the Council get cut.

	24-01-2003 22:03									#35
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Or maybe there is a saying already to this: don't get yourself to situation you can't get out of.

	24-01-2003 22:04									#36
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That's an excellent point Pekka, if your military alliance powers want to follow a different path, why stay allied?

That doesn't mean you need to be enemies, just not tied together with military comitments.

	24-01-2003 22:04									#37
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I don't think rotating presidency would work. If it rotates, why even bother having presidents? This can be done even without presidents.

	24-01-2003 22:04									#38
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i m soo sarrie pekka, mi englisch is knot soo gud ither. Albeit, eye speek Amerikanese. B-sides, speling teh werd "Imperialistic" without teh "E" woodn't make cense atall.

	24-01-2003 22:05									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 About Alliance, the United States isn't allied to say, Finland, yet the nations get along well enough. Why is a military alliance needed between nations that have such obviously diverse goals?

If Finland were a member of the Security council, how do you think they would vote? If they voted the same way as France would you still consider them friends ?

	24-01-2003 22:06									#40
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Chris62, yes, took me a bit time to understand fully this issue. Sure, if it were up to me, I'd let the countries go who can't live up to their expectations. But I think you guys should still remain good relations and friendship.

	24-01-2003 22:07									#41
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Chris, the Paris-Berlin Axis is what the EU was founded on.
It is its locomotive of integration.
They are the biggest states and have the most influence compared to other sub divisions in the EU.

Their declarations may have angered the US but in the EU, as it is now, it is just expressing a general consensus the people have.
Thepeople are just not conveinced that there is a cause for war on Iraq.
I'm not expressing an opinion as to who is right or wrong, just stating what is going on here at this period.

	24-01-2003 22:07									#42
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I don't see why the US should let France and Germany hold it back. If they want to help defend Iraq, bring it on!

	24-01-2003 22:07									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka I don't think rotating presidency would work. If it rotates, why even bother having presidents? This can be done even without presidents.

We have the rotating presidency now. It works in its own way, essentially a primus inter pares. An elected presideny, as suggested by Berlin/Paris and supported in principle by London, would be a different animal.

	24-01-2003 22:07									#44
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Richileu, we have already stated our opinion. It's 'if others are for it, then we're for it'. But we wouldn't oppose it. We would give the green light, but not join the fighting. We'd join fighting if everyone thought it was necessary. This is the official statement.

	24-01-2003 22:08									#45
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quote: I think there's a lesson to learn here.. if you say something, you can't do the other thing.. so if you form military alliance, you have to respect it and not just pick up the fruits and benefits.

Hmmmm. Then why argue US involvement or even war with Iraq? Same goes for N. Korea.

	24-01-2003 22:09									#46
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Also that would mean alliance with other countries.
It's cultural thing also, as we avoid making promises we can't keep, alliances etc. It goes all the way, down to personal level in everyday life, and business life also.
So if we make military alliance, I don't see us walking away from it.

	24-01-2003 22:12									#47
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Richelieu, it's immpossible for me to say how Finland would vote, seeing I know little about what the average Finn thinks.

However, France and Germany seem to have motivations outside of the scope of the UN and it's resloutions in reguards to Iraq, do you believe these motivations should not be mentioned, that France and Germany truley do believe in the inspection process, even when Hans Blix himself he could serch for years and find nothing.
Blix also says the Iraqis are hindering his teams at every turn, and certain areas of Iraq are off limits (military instellations this time, Palaces last time).

Could you tell me why the inspection teams should continue at a task that they themselves say is pointless?
Or why the Paris/Berlin axis also believes in these sham inspections?

	24-01-2003 22:12									#48
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Richileu, to be more clear, we won't put ourselves into position where we can't do what is expected. You can laugh all you want, but it's like Japanese are nice to everyone, we do exactly like promised. We might take some things too literally sometimes, but the point is not getting yourself into that position. It's the tactics and mental state of small countries.

	24-01-2003 22:14									#49
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As a sidenote, I forgot to mention that not only Germany and France want the EU to go forth.
Most countries/peopes do. Of course there are differences of opinions as to which course this integration should take.

	24-01-2003 22:17									#50
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France and Germany already got themselves invovled by interfering in US foreign policy through the UN to protect their own foreign policy.

They might want to give another suggestion on to what should be done in order to protect both of our intrests.

As did France and Germany, so will the US (only better): protect our interests in any way possible.

Doing nothing is doing something, especialy when others are doing something.

	24-01-2003 22:18									#51
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Paitkis is correct:

France and Germany are and will be the center of Europe. All those Eastern eruopean allies of Bush, who are allies because they see the US as being their champion vs. their much bigger neighbors (in terms of being bale to have the US lobby for them in EU issues, just as the Turks tried to use the US, but failed) combined have economies smaller than France, and less people than Germany. As for Spain and Italy, the conservative governments in rule feel safe to support Bush cause they are far away from election season.

In time, as EU integration gets tighter, and if it ever really becomes a more federal institution, the pul of Germany and France will only increase on these states. Only the UK is big enough to ignore the porcess long-term, though tht is unlikely.

As for the continuing of the military allience: it still has many uses: the US might always be the one that send in the troops, but all military actions have aftermaths and costs. Without France and Germany, the costs of cleaning up, peacekeeping and so forth would increase greatly for the US, specially since all those new allies simply don't have the money to take the place of Germany and France.

	24-01-2003 22:19									#52
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Chris, the Paris-Berlin Axis is what the EU was founded on. It is its locomotive of integration. They are the biggest states and have the most influence compared to other sub divisions in the EU.

That hardly seems equitable to the other states, so the smaller states must tow the "Franco-Prussian Line" so to speak in all things?

quote: Their declarations may have angered the US but in the EU, as it is now, it is just expressing a general consensus the people have. Thepeople are just not conveinced that there is a cause for war on Iraq. I'm not expressing an opinion as to who is right or wrong, just stating what is going on here at this period.

That is interesting, seeing as France didn't ask the EU's opinion before sending forces to the Ivory Coast.
So, if it's a matter of France's former colonies, they can act without consulting the UN or the other EU members, but if it's a UN matter, they must consult the general feelings of the EU's various peoples?

	24-01-2003 22:21									#53
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Why should we care whether or not Iraq is disarmed?

Why does anyone believe that this is really about disarming Iraq?

Why are otherwise intelligent posters (like Chris) so credulous when it comes to the foreign policy pronouncements of known liars?

Why should France and Germany have the same foreign policy as the US?


edit: fixing typos.

Last edited by chegitz guevara on 24-01-2003 at 22:34

	24-01-2003 22:21									#54
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BTW NATO is for the present, offering Europe what can be called as "free security".
So it is useful for the EU to keep it for the time being. That is why there is no "departures" from it even if grave differences exist.
For the moment it is beneficial to both the EU and US some could say.

Also France has interests in the region the US wants to attack.

Public opinion, human rights etc are unfortunately more or less a parameter to what is the main game here and this is national (or semi national in the case of the EU) interests.

There is an excellent book that clearly describes the interests of each country in that region but its in greek.
Im sure there are more.

Also bare inmind that the european peoples are not indifferent to whather American civilians could die from Iraq.
They just believe the American citizens are not under any threat from Iraq. It is not indifference in any respect.

	24-01-2003 22:24									#55
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Post some of it Paiktis, I'll translate it.

	24-01-2003 22:24									#56
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Chris62, well.. we would have 2 options. To go with France and Germany. Or go with the US, Australia, UK etc. I think it's pretty obvious which way we would go.
Besides, we have already promised help rebuilding Iraq and sending peace troopers in.
Also Berlin-Paris axis is something we are little bit against of, since it's not driving our interests.
But it's easy, if we join and pledge our loyalty, we will go for it, no question about it. If we would go against it, then we would put ourselves in bad position as a small country. Easy choice.

	24-01-2003 22:29									#57
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"That hardly seems equitable to the other states, so the smaller states must tow the "Franco-Prussian Line" so to speak in all things?"

That's the usual exaggeration from the other member states. It's 2 countries out of 15, with about a quarter of weights in the Council and Parliament. They can take initiatives, their accord can shift the balance on disputed issues, but they can't force their will on the rest.

	24-01-2003 22:30									#58
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quote: They just believe the American citizens are not under any threat from Iraq. It is not indifference in any respect.

They can beliecv whatever they want. Yet, unless they have been successfully brainwashed by US propeganda then they just don't, and won't, understand.

quote: Why should we care whether or not Iraq is disarmed?

I don't know, they haven't told me that yet. IMO it is a combonation of many things including peace keeping efforts in the Mid. East which protect foreign interests including, yes, oil.

quote: Why does anyone believe that this is really about disarming Iraq?

It's about a lot of things.

quote: Why are otherwise inteeligent posters (like Chris) so credulous when it comes to the foreign policy pronouncements of known liars?[quote] Why is the entire French and German governments? Why? Because they want to give everyone a shot at peace. Yet, they failed. [quote]Why should France and Germany have the same foreign policy as the US?

No one has really indicated that the want everyone to share the same foreign policy. I could also flip this question to read why should the US have the same for policy as France and Germany?

We have to face it. If we want to go to war it will be only us.

	24-01-2003 22:32									#59
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quote: They can take initiatives, their accord can shift the balance on disputed issues, but they can't force their will on the rest.

I think deep down inside you know that is not true.

	24-01-2003 22:34									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Japher I think deep down inside you know that is not true.

I think that came from deep down inside right through your rear.

How would do they do it? Examples? Put up.