24-01-2003 22:37									#61
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Oh this Thread is still on? :=)

quote: Saddam had 12 years to comply MB, how much longer does he need?

As much Time as the UN is willing to give?
C'mon as if Time would matter.. some weeks, months
There were no Illegal Weapons found you know? :=)

quote: They have been "friends" for 40 years, now they sing the same tune, but again, that doesn't answer my question, should these powers remain allied?

Is US afraid of EU bringing some Sense in Situations like these?
Are you an enemy of the French-German Friendship which was difficult to achieve and is one of the Biggest Achievments of European Integration?

I'm concerned about US doing whatever it wants and thats my point.

	24-01-2003 22:40									#62
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Frabnce and Germany cannot "force" their will to the rest of the EU. In most cases they express or set the trends. The multiple democratic (and not so democratic) safety valves of the EU guarantee that no one nation or two nations (even if they are the largest in the EU) will be in a position to pass their decisions on the rest.

i.e.an alliance of small states in the EU can succesfully outvote all 3: UK, Germany and France.

	24-01-2003 22:41									#63
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Dont have thebook with me Chris sorry

	24-01-2003 22:44									#64
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Let us have some decorum in my little thread fellows.

Civil discourse is the road to understanding.

Paiktis says that the Franco/Prussians dominate the EU thought process, not I, go back and look if you dispute this.

Also, I don't recall asking if people believed in the correctness of military action in Iraq, but on whether the allies should remain allied in light of fundemental differnces in approach.

Some say the EU is the only future, but this isn't so, the flank powers don't seem to be inclined to tow the Paris/Berlin line, anymore then the southern powers do.
The two may find themselves out in the cold, so to speak, as a dual alliance.

	24-01-2003 22:47									#65
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

European parliament:
/wwwdb.europarl.eu.int/ep5/owa/p_me...EN&iorig=&imsg=

Belgium: 25
Denmark: 16
Gemany: 99 (If correct Population were used it were over 100 but teh Balance..)
Greek: 25
Spain: 64
France: 87
Ireland: 15
Italy: 87
Luxembourg: 6 (!!!)
the Netherlands: 31
Austria: 21
Portugal: 25
Finnland: 16
Sweden: 22
UK: 87

	24-01-2003 22:48									#66
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Dont have thebook with me Chris sorry

That's a shame.

Well, maybe you can expand on the ideas it presents, anyway.

	24-01-2003 22:50									#67
	Remove this text

BTW: Prussia doesn't lie in Germany.. its more to the East

/xcept Brandenbourg

	24-01-2003 22:54									#68
	Remove this text

Dont have much time
BTW I didnt say france-germany dominate the EU thought process but they are (and always have been) the main driving force behind further european integration.
It is fair to say that with out the berlin paris axis (a great achievement indeed for europe) the EU would maybe not have been able to exist.

	24-01-2003 23:02									#69
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

But we have to ask whether the EU is a good thing for it's member states.

Is it?

	24-01-2003 23:07									#70
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

This is a difficult question. Depends who you ask from.
I think it's about 50/50 for us, but if it goes worse, then we need to get out of it.

	24-01-2003 23:08									#71
	Got spare money?

Opinions vary of course.

My humble personal estimate is that it is.
People tend to forget why the EU was created in the first place: to avert another intra-european war. (coal and steel treaty etc)
Of course it has moved on from that but those were its foundations.

It also greatly depends on which country you're in, what are your political convictions etc


The discussions continue as to what form the EU should take.

Would it last forever though? I dont want to play cassandra but I think it will need a huge effort (and not forgetting its basis and reason d'etre ) to do that. But it will certaintly be around for a good deal of time. I think this is a good thing but it also depends on where it willk be steered and in what it will trancend to.

There are no easy answers for that.
Decisions are made as we go along...

	24-01-2003 23:10									#72
	Suffering from ads?

This war has nothing to do with Iraq accept as a target.

	24-01-2003 23:14									#73
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

The Eastern Coutries will enjoy great economic Benefits.
The Western 'Agraric Subventional States' (Spain, Protugal, Greece etc.) will loose Priviliges but I dont care :P
EU is great!

	24-01-2003 23:24									#74
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 However, France and Germany seem to have motivations outside of the scope of the UN and it's resloutions in reguards to Iraq, do you believe these motivations should not be mentioned, that France and Germany truley do believe in the inspection process, even when Hans Blix himself he could serch for years and find nothing. Blix also says the Iraqis are hindering his teams at every turn, and certain areas of Iraq are off limits (military instellations this time, Palaces last time). Could you tell me why the inspection teams should continue at a task that they themselves say is pointless? Or why the Paris/Berlin axis also believes in these sham inspections?

It would be hard to argue that neither France nor Germany has motivations outside of the scope of this particular issue. I tend to agree with that argumentation and i agree with most of the reasons given here ( economic crisis, Chirac's prestige etc..).
That is one of the factor.

I still think that the inspections need to go full course because that's what we have said we would do. That's the way we said we were going to do it.

The US constant criticism of the process itself, and its posturing has not helped the case for war: it has weakened it. It has also given an excuse to France and Germany to distance themselves from the US - something that the public opinion cheers in both countries .

	24-01-2003 23:27									#75
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hmm, that kind of thinking may lead to fractures in the EU structure.

In order to have a fair and balenced Union, ALL the member states must be taken into consideration.

Also, if things aern't fair, why would many states, like Portugual and Spain, want to part of such a union?

Why should Eastern Europe be favored over Southern Europe?

	24-01-2003 23:32									#76
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Richelieu It would be hard to argue that neither France nor Germany has motivations outside of the scope of this particular issue. I tend to agree with that argumentation and i agree with most of the reasons given here ( economic crisis, Chirac's prestige etc..). That is one of the factor.

Yes, they have many alterior motives it would seem.

quote: I still think that the inspections need to go full course because that's what we have said we would do. That's the way we said we were going to do it.

As I recall, there was a rigid timetable, and the precondition that Iraq not hinder the process, while providing full disclosure.
Iraq has failed on both of those counts.

quote: The US constant criticism of the process itself, and its posturing has not helped the case for war: it has weakened it. It has also given an excuse to France and Germany to distance themselves from the US - something that the public opinion cheers in both countries .

On the surface, perhaps.

But what is the effect on Baghdad and the Arab states?
Did not a number of them just yesterday call for Iraq to comply while it still could?
Would they have done so if the US was more concilitory?

	24-01-2003 23:39									#77
	Remove this text

It shouldn't be forgotten that the EU itself has taken Stand on teh Issue. Its only France&Germany( in the Following called GWB)
GWB have made their Point. But its not the case taht US would need teh Help of GWB to conquer Iraq.

US and GWB are in one Alliance: NATO an Alliance founded to defend the Western World from the EasternEvilCommunist Block.
Is this Alliance defined to invade Arabian States? Uhm No I dont think so.
The Alliance vs Terror? Iraqie Involvemt in Terror Acts? Perhaps.

	24-01-2003 23:42									#78
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Why is a military alliance needed between nations that have such obviously diverse goals?

When did Germany/France (or any other country) and the US sign an offensive alliance? I must have missed that.

	24-01-2003 23:42									#79
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Why should Eastern Europe be favored over Southern Europe?

Eastern Europe should be favored over Southern Europe just because of the Statistics.
If you look at the Situation (And hereby I mean: Infrastructure, Education etc.) you will see that Eastern Countries are worse than Southern Countries and thus need the Majority of Subsidies.

Which btw was the Main Cause for Spain to oppose the EU Enlargment (until bribed but that another story)

quote: Also, if things aern't fair, why would many states, like Portugual and Spain, want to part of such a union?

Fair? Dont you think the Poorer Countries need the EU money instead of those better off
The EU is governed by a Parliament dont forget that.
The Number of Seats is related to the Population so its all 'Fair'
We call it Democracy. Peace& Justice for all :=)

	24-01-2003 23:48									#80
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

All as determined by the French and Germans?

All the states have needs, favoring one section over another isn't very fair, nor does the Paris/Berlin axis control the most people.
As the chart provived showed, GB and Italy are right there with France population wise, and both have agreed to uphold treaty comitments made in UN resolutions.

	24-01-2003 23:53									#81
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Kontiki When did Germany/France (or any other country) and the US sign an offensive alliance? I must have missed that.

So have I.

What offensive war is being contemplated?

The current situation is a continuation of the Gulf war started by Iraq, 12 years later.

It seems you have lost sigth of that, perhaps you'd like to reconsider your postion in light of that fact?

	24-01-2003 23:54									#82
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: I think that came from deep down inside right through your rear. How would do they do it? Examples? Put up.

Be nice!


I am no politician, but having an economic pact such of the EU in place that is being run by politicians is sure to have it's problems. What happens when foreign policy clashes with economic sanctions? Well I guess we are finding out. As to whether or not Germany/France can force others to do their bidding; we will also find out. Yet, even in socialist states money does talk. Exploitation, bribes, extortion, black male, and other economic ultimatums will, if not already, exist. In a sense this will force the lesser powers within the union to succumb to the greater forces desires, whether they are based on political or economic ideals.

quote: Frabnce and Germany cannot "force" their will to the rest of the EU. In most cases they express or set the trends.

and

quote: BTW I didnt say france-germany dominate the EU thought process but they are (and always have been) the main driving force behind further european integration. It is fair to say that with out the berlin paris axis (a great achievement indeed for europe) the EU would maybe not have been able to exist.

Yields a lot of power for such "forcing" or "coercing".

	24-01-2003 23:56									#83
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Well I think of it this way: Sure we have good educational level and all that. But we pay for it dearly. Highest income taxation, one of the lowest income level with that, super hard taxation with everything else, free military service (mandatory), highest prices (more than 17% more expensive than in central Europe).. why the hell should we give more to others, when we can't buy kaka for ourselves after this.
Welcome to a country where you can't get a small new car with less than $20 000. Sounds bad? Well how about the cheapest SUV, only $100 000, and that's the crappy one. Want to drive it? Pay $5 per gallon.
Now, we can't afford to anything much, and if we keep concentrating to some part specially, at least we need to get out of this thing. Point is, we pay hard for our well being.

	24-01-2003 23:58									#84
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: why the hell should we give more to others, when we can't buy kaka for ourselves after this...Point is, we pay hard for our well being.

Ah! That sounds so Rebulican American-ish. I love it!

	25-01-2003 00:06									#85
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Chris, one of the main agenda/target on this 6 month presidency, which happen to be greek, is, unavoidably, the war on Iraq.
On this Greece has opted to push for a unified position of the EU on the issue.
One voice.

This is extremely hard. And presidencies do not mean you get the decision making process in your hands but that you deal with the coordinational/procedural matters. Important and very tiresome but not defining.

Officially the person you should be looking to for the "EU stand" is the "Mr. common foreign policy and defence" Haviez Solana. He's on a tough stop together with Greece's foreign minister George Papandreoy (Andreas Papandreou's son - nothing like his father )

The official line of the EU comes from these two men.
And it is: "we would prefer if war on Iraq didnt happen"

This is the official line and it is, as is plain for you to see, a compromise of the opposing views of the EU.

France and Germany are against - period.
UK is very in favor (has shown it too, it has sent troops, 1/4 of its army).


Also, the European Parliement has not the powers it should have (democratic deficit - balance safety valves of the EU).

The official line of the EU was the abovementioned.
Greek Presidency has proposed that the EU should form its unified policy on the issue on the basis of the fact that 4 of EU members are on the UN Security council. (a pathetic attempt to shift the burden if you ask me)

In any case THAT'S where all the money is.

The EU has not a unified foreign policy line for the present. Not really.

Some countries (UK) would rather prefer if it never did.

In any case the Paris Berlin axis has a defining "gravity" on this, not only because of its central position on the EU but also because of its power as a duality. The latter is what has the most weight in the case of war or not on Iraq IMHO.

	25-01-2003 00:07									#86
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Pekka Well I think of it this way: Sure we have good educational level and all that. But we pay for it dearly. Highest income taxation, one of the lowest income level with that, super hard taxation with everything else, free military service (mandatory), highest prices (more than 17% more expensive than in central Europe).. why the hell should we give more to others, when we can't buy kaka for ourselves after this. Welcome to a country where you can't get a small new car with less than $20 000. Sounds bad? Well how about the cheapest SUV, only $100 000, and that's the crappy one. Want to drive it? Pay $5 per gallon. Now, we can't afford to anything much, and if we keep concentrating to some part specially, at least we need to get out of this thing. Point is, we pay hard for our well being.

You rock Pekka.

	25-01-2003 00:07									#87
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I agree

	25-01-2003 00:22									#88
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

For the power structure in the world today I think there is little need for alliances at all. None of the industrial powers are in real danger of war with each other with the possible exception of the event of China invading Taiwan (but still I really doubt that that would cause world war).

The world economy is integrated more and more and that seems to be the agenda for all the industrial nations. The fact that France and Germany seem to be more politically alligned with each other than they do with other countries is not significant. It maybe significant in respect to the question of whether the EU will be expanded, but that's it I think.

The idea of alliance is not relevant today. Trading partners is more relevant right now. The US and France\Germany should not stop trading and won't.

	25-01-2003 00:24									#89
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Pekka Well I think of it this way: Sure we have good educational level and all that. But we pay for it dearly. Highest income taxation, one of the lowest income level with that, super hard taxation with everything else, free military service (mandatory), highest prices (more than 17% more expensive than in central Europe).. why the hell should we give more to others, when we can't buy kaka for ourselves after this. Welcome to a country where you can't get a small new car with less than $20 000. Sounds bad? Well how about the cheapest SUV, only $100 000, and that's the crappy one. Want to drive it? Pay $5 per gallon. Now, we can't afford to anything much, and if we keep concentrating to some part specially, at least we need to get out of this thing. Point is, we pay hard for our well being.

Well, social welfare is expensive but much better than SUVs.

	25-01-2003 00:24									#90
	Increase Your PM Length

I didn't mean to sound so hard..
Since we are so socialist country anyway, the conditions are different for us. We do benefit from other countries too, we don't just give, we take too.. but as we now have this system, which is super expensive, it's not fair that 'poorer' countries gets more benefits than we do. We make less money anyway, so how come things are so good in here? Simple, no one gets rich. We should have the same system in every member country, then we can really compare where to send the money.