24-01-2003 20:22									#1
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The NY Post carried that as today's headline, with a picture of Chirac and Schroeder "confiring".

It now seems that France is using an anti-war stance to gain popularity in some sections of the EU, in an effort to escape from repaying billions of Euros, and that Schroeder is using events to cover a failing economy, by using that old standby, when things get rough, blame the Americans.

The point is, since it's becoming clear that neither nation cares at all about disarming Saddam Hussein, why is anybody listening to them?

A number of EU states, such as Great Britain, Italy, Spain, and new nato states like Poland, Romania, the Chezh republic, ali of the Baltic States, ect, are now fully willing to put a stop to Saddam and enforce resolutions already in place.

Rumsfeld heavily critised the two nations, as "old Europe", the French were extremly angry at this, one minister refused to coment as she could not control the content of her reproof of the US minister.
I have heard some coments of "good for her" from some Europeans, as well as undisguised laughter from Americans at the French.

The question now is, can these powers remain allied in a world where their interests are clearly at odds, and are drifting further apart?

Is the Paris-Berlin axis now taking over the EU, with the UN soon to follow?
Your thoughts, if you please.

	24-01-2003 20:27									#2
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Relying on the NY Post for valid opinions is like relying on Ross Perot for mental health advice.

	24-01-2003 20:30									#3
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Not asnwering the thread besides a useless one liner is like kissing your sister, it's a girl, but who cares?

	24-01-2003 20:33									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Not asnwering the thread besides a useless one liner is like kissing your sister, it's a girl, but who cares?

Who cares about kissing any girls?

The Post is just pissed because so many countries are standing up to the U.S. and not going along with the stupid ass war. Heaven forbid countries practice independence from U.S. foreign policy.

	24-01-2003 20:39									#5
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That's all very interesting Boris, but it wasn't my question.

Want to have another go?

	24-01-2003 20:40									#6
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Nah, I got bored with the post halfway through, anyway.

	24-01-2003 20:40									#7
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No, they're pointing out that once you leave U.S. or Britain's borders, all motivation is suspect.

	24-01-2003 20:44									#8
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It's not meant as a bash of them (but it is a really funny line), but the question remains, can the United States, France and Germany continue as allies when it's clear they have widely different world view and objectives?

Should they even try?

	24-01-2003 20:47									#9
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First, I want to thank Chris62 for not making this anti-europe thingie, as it easily would be done if not avoiding certain words

I don't know, I think Schroeder does this to get votes most of all, so I don't know where Germany REALLY stands with this issue. I don't know anything about Frances position on this, except that if they have some issues, it's easy to team up with Schroeder now.. Maybe they are against the war even without any internal issues, but I doubt it. I think they're being dishonest.

I believe it's important to keep relations to Germany and France warm, and try to keep communication in friendly tone. Of course this is only just a little fighting words, nothing more and will not result to anything serious. When the dialogue stops, then it's serious and we should all be worried.
I kind of understand the problems, because you all are allied to each other in military alliance... hmm.. makes you think.

Europe is really changing now, former power twins, France and Germany are retreating and thinking what to do, and even we, the people of peace are thinking of joining NATO and sending troops to fight them wars. I say let's jump over the dead horse and get on with it!

	24-01-2003 20:49									#10
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And, if this thing keeps escalating, I hope Rumsfeld, Bush etc really underlines the countries out and not say Europe, because even without them, we can still rock and rumble!

	24-01-2003 20:50									#11
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Going back to WW II, and you may recognize this from Band of Brothers, U.S. military felt the most like Germans.
They idntified with how Germans tidied up and went back about their business. Germans, not Nazis.
They really like Brits, despite their dry sense of humor.
Thought the French dirty and of poor attitude. Some things apparently never change.
They liked the people of the frozen wastelands of the North the best though.

	24-01-2003 20:51									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 The point is, since it's becoming clear that neither nation cares at all about disarming Saddam Hussein, why is anybody listening to them?

France's UN veto. They only care about $$$.

BTW. It doesn't matter whether Saddam's armed, or were this is just to get the oil which are the common
arguments. He's a dictator who pulled the trigger that
started two wars of aggression. That alone is reason to kick him out of power.

	24-01-2003 20:54									#13
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blame the Americans.
-Nope.

neither nation cares at all about disarming Saddam Hussein
-Both (+Russia) say that the UN Inspectors should be given more Time. More importantly the Support to War in the Arabic States is low.

Rumsfeld heavily [...]undisguised laughter from Americans at the French
-Uh great Diplomacy Mr Rumsfeld


Regarding the "confering" you realize it was 40 Years French-German Friendship?

Bah! Not worth discussing

	24-01-2003 20:57									#14
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Saddam had 12 years to comply MB, how much longer does he need?

They have been "friends" for 40 years, now they sing the same tune, but again, that doesn't answer my question, should these powers remain allied?

	24-01-2003 21:00									#15
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In my opinion, they should.

	24-01-2003 21:20									#16
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Allow me to decend into a small bit of Mr. Funism with a post from another thread that maybe more appropiate here:

quote: Is a "smoking gun" needed as France and Germany suggest? Resolution 1441 didn't demand a smoking gun. It was an olive branch to Iraq to give them a chance to avoid military assault by proving that they had actually disarmed. So far Iraq's efforts at this have fallen far short of that goal. The effort to shift the burden of proof to the US only serves to further damage the UN's credibility.

	24-01-2003 21:30									#17
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"It now seems that France is using an anti-war stance to gain popularity in some sections of the EU, in an effort to escape from repaying billions of Euros"

Fascinating.

"can the United States, France and Germany continue as allies"

Continue?

"Resolution 1441 didn't demand a smoking gun."

Right, it says "at Mr Bush's pleasure". So much more refined than "smoking gun".

	24-01-2003 21:34									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Saddam had 12 years to comply MB, how much longer does he need? They have been "friends" for 40 years, now they sing the same tune, but again, that doesn't answer my question, should these powers remain allied?

It depends on the point of view i guess.
They should if you think the world needs something to balance the US influence/power etc... in the western democracies arena.

	24-01-2003 21:36									#19
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quote: The Post is just pissed because so many countries are standing up to the U.S. and not going along with the stupid ass war. Heaven forbid countries practice independence from U.S. foreign policy.

I think the US was hoping that the other countries would practice indpendence from US foreign policy, but they stuck their nose into, and rightfully so. Yet, if other countries interfere or will interfere with us we wil do the same thing that they did.

I think what France and Germany are doing is a typical Wad the Dog, or "forget what the left hand is doing and look into the light" kind of thing so that the people forget what is actually happening at home. In some sense the same kind of wool has been pulled over our eyes here in the US.

	24-01-2003 21:40									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Is the Paris-Berlin axis now taking over the EU.

I doubt it. If anything they are uniting because they are losing their own independent influences on the EU - mainly due to poor economies but also because of EU expansion.

	24-01-2003 21:46									#21
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Right, it says "at Mr Bush's pleasure". So much more refined than "smoking gun".

Cute. Pure willful ignorance on your part though.

	24-01-2003 21:46									#22
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Well, they have been forcing that 'president of the EU'-thing, which we as a small country are hard against, because then we don't have anything to say... Hmm.. I see the whole puzzle coming together now . They're trying to over take the EU into their submission.. won't happen!

But something fishy is going on, I can smell it coming.

	24-01-2003 21:48									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Japher I think what France and Germany are doing is a typical Wad the Dog,

That's how I view what politicians do, too!

	24-01-2003 21:49									#24
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"Cute. Pure willful ignorance on your part though."

You have a funny way of interpreting international law, but you're not in a US tort lawsuit here.

"They're trying to over take the EU into their submission.."

Which is why no other than Blair is bouncing like a happy canguroo about the presidency idea.

	24-01-2003 21:52									#25
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Edit - crossed wires.

	24-01-2003 21:52									#26
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HershOstropoler, yep. At least we don't like that idea one bit, and if it is to happen, we won't be EU member anymore. But it won't happen, I mean how stupid idea is that? STUPID!

It's like 'would you like to come under our rule? You won't get to say anything though.. '.. yeah sure.

	24-01-2003 21:53									#27
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler You have a funny way of interpreting international law,

According to the terms of the resolution, Iraq already is in material breach. Whether France and Germany choose to recognize that fact is another matter altogether.

	24-01-2003 21:55									#28
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About Alliance, the United States isn't allied to say, Finland, yet the nations get along well enough.

Why is a military alliance needed between nations that have such obviously diverse goals?

	24-01-2003 21:55									#29
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EU = Emperialistic Union

it should be called Go F.U. (Germany Or France's Union)

	24-01-2003 21:56									#30
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Paris and Berlin were ALWAYS the axis that kept the EU going.

Now it is just a bit more apparent since they went against the war on Iraq.