27-01-2003 03:22									#31
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay In the meantime, we need to get Iron Working now so we can move on with our research into Writing without compromising our ability to defend ourselves.

I'm not in love with this sentence... it could be construed as exhibiting weakness.

	27-01-2003 03:29									#32
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Changed to "so we can move on with our research into Writing without undercutting our ability to maintian parity in defensive technologies." Does that sound better?

	27-01-2003 03:44									#33
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Yes, go ahead, send it.

	27-01-2003 03:53									#34
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Message sent.

	27-01-2003 05:03									#35
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okay on the messages, but we really need to discuss this 3-partner relation... and I can tell you now I have great reluctance to accepting Vox as a long term partner. Even if Betahound is maybe most of the cause of the problems, this attitude won't change over night.

What I do like is giving them our word to discuss this, maenwhile getting what we want now. At least Jon Miller seems to understand what partnering with a good team can give him.

Other points: who are Civ X, if they go for IW immediately? How many teams do they now? If ND, RPG and the legos are going to work together, blocking us out of the game, this can only be GoW or Lux... doesn't partnering with the 3 teams will be better in the long term?
If we can be honorable, and only accept any responsibilities for the 3-tech deal, and nothing final after that (leaving us plenty of time to prepare to attack Vox), okay, I agree. But everyone agrees that Vox has to go once we need space to expand to, so don't accept any deals that will bind us to them for a longer time then needed to prepare for war.

DeepO

	27-01-2003 08:33									#36
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Shouldn't our guy on the east coast (I forget his name) take the mountain?

	27-01-2003 09:04									#37
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That's Vox's lookout spot. AFAIK they left it temporarily to chase the barbarian hut. I don't think they'll take kindly to us taking it behind their backs.

	27-01-2003 11:35									#38
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I just updated the turn information at the top to reflect the current status of negotiations with Vox.

	27-01-2003 11:46									#39
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Just in case anyone misses it in the other thread, we have a chat scheduled with Vox for 8:00 pm Monday Apolyton (U.S. Eastern) time for whoever from both teams can show up. The plan is to meet in the Vox chatroom on Apolyton.

Nathan

	27-01-2003 13:02									#40
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I favour a fully open tech alliance with Vox. There may not be many other ways to climb out of the hole we are already in.

Contacts should be part of that though. After all, contacts mean faster research for both of us.

Yes, Vox will get more than us. However, there will be no other way to make Vox comfortable in the short to mid term. If they feel they can not keep up in tech, they will have no reason not to attack in an effort to improve their position. If we can tame them, they will chip in 1 tech to our 2, or 2 to our 3. In short, they improve our research by 50% or 60%, or we consume ourselves in early warfare and fall hopelessly and irrevocably behind the 'mainland'.

	27-01-2003 13:24									#41
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Yes, such an alliance makes sense. I'm not against a buffer state between us and Lux, at the countrary, and we should do our best to make this state our vassal instead of leaving this to Lux. So my thumbs up for the tech alliance. However, we should leak to Vox, that our Mystics can determine, whether Vox has a tech or not.

	27-01-2003 14:39									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Yes, such an alliance makes sense. I'm not against a buffer state between us and Lux, at the countrary, and we should do our best to make this state our vassal instead of leaving this to Lux. So my thumbs up for the tech alliance. However, we should leak to Vox, that our Mystics can determine, whether Vox has a tech or not.

We've already given them a rather clear demonstration of that capability in connection with BetaHound's misstatement.

	27-01-2003 16:07									#43
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I didn't get it all- did Vox agree to trade alpahbet for IW?

They seem to play with words, and imply that their words cannot be taken seriously (like a child that promises to take his medicine for a candy, takes the candy and than says he wants another one for the shot). In short, they said they found a better deal than what was agreed upon and we should understand that.

Indeed, an unstable and untrustwhorthy neighbor.

	27-01-2003 16:51									#44
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quote: Originally posted by zeit I didn't get it all- did Vox agree to trade alpahbet for IW? They seem to play with words, and imply that their words cannot be taken seriously (like a child that promises to take his medicine for a candy, takes the candy and than says he wants another one for the shot). In short, they said they found a better deal than what was agreed upon and we should understand that. Indeed, an unstable and untrustwhorthy neighbor.

I agree that this event is not a good sign in terms of our being able to trust Vox. On the other hand, the agreement was predicated on the idea of each side contributing things of equal value to the exchange. When Vox got another offer from Lux (or however it happened) the value of Alphabet suddenly went down dramatically. Suddenly, the deal went from something equal to something that would clearly favor us.

Suppose your hypothetical child made the candy-for-taking-medicine deal and then someone else came along and offered the child all the candy he wanted without having to take medicine. Would that not make the child's changing his mind, if not fully justified, then at least a lot easier to understand? Would the child not be at least a little bit justified feeling cheated in being held to the original deal when the situation changed so dramatically?

Now consider that what's at stake for Vox right now is nothing less than a matter of life and death for their civ. Without some kind of firm commitment to peace and partnership from us, they have to be afraid that we'll leave them in the dust tech-wise and quite possibly take them out. It's a serious miscalculation on their part to think that a tech or two is more useful for their survival than building trust is, but for players used to SP, it's also an understandable miscalculation.

Nathan

	27-01-2003 17:23									#45
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By the way, it's not just us Vox is concerned about either. They're also concerned about keeping up with the rest of the world, and given that they're already falling behind, they need to get everything they can out of us if they want to keep up. And while building trust with us helps them persuade us that they don't have to die, it doesn't exactly do a lot for their ability to keep up with anyone else.

	27-01-2003 18:20									#46
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Nathan, you're doing a good job as their ambassador, in seeing it from their perspective, trying to convince us of their right, but don't exagerate either. Of course I can understand that their deal with us suddenly went worse then they expected, but that's not our fault. It's their miscalculation, they agreed to it, and whether Lux has given them all the candy they want or not, they simply have to go through with the original deal.

Already they're conceived as instable, if they also back out of deals because they feel another deal can be better, it will erode the trust in them even further. You said it to JM, I hope he understood our side of things too.

I agree on the joint research, but if we are going to put in more beakers, and more experience, it has to be on our terms. That means, if we tell them they need to stop on mysticism (no matter how far they are advanced in it), and start on philosphy, they have to agree to do it. I will not agree to play the game at their terms, only because we need to get out of this position. If they recognise more talent in our team, good, then listen if we say something that will be good to both of us. JM said he doesn't want to be our vasal, he doesn't need to, but if we are going to take Vox into consideration, they better start doing the same with us... and this goes beyond building trust.

DeepO

	27-01-2003 18:21									#47
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay On the other hand, the agreement was predicated on the idea of each side contributing things of equal value to the exchange. When Vox got another offer from Lux (or however it happened) the value of Alphabet suddenly went down dramatically. Suddenly, the deal went from something equal to something that would clearly favor us.

I must disagree. The whole point of a binding agreement (I assume this is what we had) is that you cannot just back out whenever you feel like it.

Vox: "Ok, we'll let's trade techs A, B for C, D; oh, I'm sorry, we can now buy tech B for a lot cheaper than what you're asking for. Sorry you got gipped."

GS: "Let's be lifelong trading partners."

If they want to make deals with strings attached, they must declare so up front. Reneging on a deal without notice is not exactly the kind of behaviour I'm looking for in a team we're building a partnership with.

Nathan your example of the child and his/her medicine is right on, but not for the reasons you think. As adults, we understand that it is a good idea for the child to take his medicine (the candy is just, well, candy). Giving in to what children want is not always a good idea because they're immature. Similarly with agreements: consenting adults understand that agreements are typically binding. Vox's reaction to our agreement demonstrates that they are opportunistic above all. Their willingness to break agreements demonstrates that they're just as egocentric as the child in your example.

Edit: Cross-posted with DeepO, who said the same thing as me, only nicer.


Dominae

	27-01-2003 18:56									#48
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Nathan, can we back off from the long-term diplo planning for a bit? Whether the 3-partner tech consortium or a lifelong relationship with Vox, the recent and near-term volatility of the game prevent us from effective long-term discussions (as evidenced by the Vox debate).

Let's stick with the basics for now:

* Get all the tech we can, and try to guide Vox' research.

* Get contacts ASAP; this may be through Vox, but it may require Mapmaking sooner rather than later.

* Execute our REX; personally, I say let Vox build where ever they want, as we are the dominant civ... I'd avoid any diplo agreements on this issue... I'd rather LET them build as indicated on your map than APPROVE same.

* Prepare an appropriate defense, and consider a more aggressive posture re both Vox and LI.

Keep the diplo agreements short and focused on the relatively near-term.

	27-01-2003 19:47									#49
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I'm not sure how much we can separate short-term and long-term. The main reason Vox is so unstable is that they're scared (with good reason, I might add), and as long as they remain scared, they are likely to remain unstable. If I were Vox and didn't have a commitment to lasting peace from GS (maybe not permanent, but at least for a long time to come), I'd be out looking for allies willing to help me take out GS should a decent opportunity arise. (Although I'm a bit skeptical regarding their chances of finding any.)

Regarding REXing, I get a fairly strong impression that Vox is after acknowledged borders. Also note that without acknowledged borders, their logical move would be to claim the most and best land they can with a limited number of settlers, whereas my suggested build pattern is designed to make the best possible use of a limited amount of land. The city build patterns resulting from the two different philosophies could be radically different, and if they get caught without enough cities, that's likely to cause trouble.

Nathan

	27-01-2003 20:35									#50
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Wow, that was a lot to read (all the activity from friday afternoon until now). If I've got this right, they tried to back out of our tech deal.

Interestingly enough, I had the same sort of situation occur in a PBEM game. I had agreed to trade for the Alphabet, and subsequently met the (AI) Greeks. I did make a brief attempt at renegotiation, before coming to my senses and going through with the original deal.

So, I understand their unhappiness at the way things panned out, but they had better damn well hand over Ironworking RIGHT NOW.

They're scared of us. Fine, based on our relative power, I understand that. But they should also be scared of stiffing us!

Re: expansion. I do not like the idea of volunteering to limit ourselves. We went with the granary so that we could have a successful REX phase. That was the point, right?

-Arrian

	27-01-2003 21:40									#51
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Further, I doubt that the second granary is going to do us a lot of good if we limit ourselves...

DeepO

	27-01-2003 22:59									#52
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I just checked the border screenie, and I agree on this... maybe we can give Vox another tile, so that they end up on #12 (with immediate access to the fish), that doesn't matter to us apart from running the risk of losing a iron source.

I'm not sure we have to make this final (and formal), but if we both agree on this proposal, there will be a lot less pressure, and that's good. One main advantage is that they get an idea on how close we expect their cities to be, it is cramped, but it is just what we're using too.

DeepO

	28-01-2003 01:36									#53
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I sent Jon Miller a PM asking if the chat can be moved an hour earlier for the benefit of our European contingent. I'll let you know when he answers, but I figure some advance warning that it might happen won't hurt.

	28-01-2003 03:31									#54
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Jon agreed to the time change. The chat will be at 7:00 p.m. Apolyton/U.S. Eastern time (midnight GMT).

	28-01-2003 05:39									#55
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Re borders:

How is saying "build wherever you want, we'll do the same" scary to Vox?

	28-01-2003 06:21									#56
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Turn arrived.

Vox is offering IW for Alphabet and already has accepted the deal. We accept too, and have IW now.

	28-01-2003 06:22									#57
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We have iron near Hurricane and in the northwestern end of the Spinebreakers. Vox has iron at the mountain with the barbarian encampment.

	28-01-2003 06:43									#58
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Woohoo!!!

All the more reason... let Vox build wherever they want.

Screenshot, por favor.

	28-01-2003 06:45									#59
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Turn played and sent. Set Writing to 100% Grog got us 25 gold from the barbs, although failed to get promoted. Vox killed the running barb with Rodney. All else as described. We own 88 gold now.

This was a good turn. Screenies (zoom, f11, power) soon.

	28-01-2003 06:50									#60
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Team Scores:

74 (+1) Gathering Storm
85 (+1) Demogyptica
70 (+1) Glory of War
81 (+1) Role Play
65 (+0) Vox Controli
65 (+1) Lux Invicta
89 (+2) Legoland

Screenshots sent. Btw, the negotiations for an alliance are going in the #voxcontroli chatroom, if fact you want to be there, Theseus.