26-01-2003 12:47									#1
	The REAL Turn 42 Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

To be edited by the leaders of the Scholia.

Status:
- Researching Writing at zero (so in effect researching nothing)
- 63 gold cash, +12 per turn.

Urgent questions:
- Do we want to agree to exchange all techs learned by both us and Vox for an indefinite period of time? By my agreement with Jon, if we accept the Alphabet-for-Iron trade (assuming it's offered), we agree to either accept that arrangement or provide some other kind of compensation to Vox (to be determined) for the fact that they could get Alphabet cheaper from Lux.

Military:
- Grog attacks the barbarian camp unless he has been injured by an earlier barbarian attack, in which case he fortifies.
- New settler moves 1 (second move on path 1-1-1-4 to Bolderberg site).
- Slash moves 2 toward Bolderberg site (unless Grog gets killed, in which case he heads north to take Grog's place).

Economy:
- Finish the tech trade (assuming it's offered) if and only if we're willing to accept the conditions attached. See urgent question.
- Worker #1 finished with road; moves 1-2 along road to prepare to connect Bolderberg and its horses.
- Worker #2 finished with chop, starts irrigating.
- No changes to cities.

Diplomacy:
- Tentative agreement reached with Vox regarding the tech situation if GS approves it. See the "urgent question."

Last edited by nbarclay on 27-01-2003 at 11:35

	26-01-2003 13:16									#2
	Re: The REAL Turn 42 Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Diplomacy: - Still trying to get Vox to live up to its end of the tech deal.

If they dont, we should consider making it public knowledge to other teams that their words are not to be trusted.

	26-01-2003 17:16									#3
	Re: The REAL Turn 42 Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Urgent questions: - What do we do if Vox doesn't offer Iron Working this turn?

I think we should wait for their diplomatic response. We have enough hours on the counter, that we can afford this. Let's look first, what they answer and what's their tone.

What concerns the voxian email addresses for sending the F8 screenie, they are in dejons info thread in the main forum.

Eli: shadowmn at netvision dot net dot il
Dissident: Krusher3X at yahoo dot com

	26-01-2003 17:35									#4
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Just so I get this straight, Vox told us that they would finish Iron Working on their turn 41, or on turn 42?
I didn't quite catch when their diplomatic message was received (I was asleep while all the action was taking place).

	26-01-2003 19:52									#5
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Yeah, that was also going to be my question, when exactly would they finish, provided they tell the thruth (which I doubt)

Definately wait for a response, we've got enough time to avoid having to waste any commerce.

DeepO

	26-01-2003 20:15									#6
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I REALLY hope that they're telling the truth. If they're not, it means that they may have decided to doublecross us, whereas if they're honest, it means that they are SLOW. In fact, MUCH slower than I expected they would be.
More likely, they're just trying to bend us in order to delay our research, or they may be testing their boundaries. I assume that their strategy is to break them sooner or later anyway, so they might as well find out how long they can stretch our patience and diplomatic front before the bubble bursts before the moment of truth arrives.

	26-01-2003 20:53									#7
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I say we research writing, we won't have to worry about an attack for a while, and it would just be a waste to start building an army in the near future. We must focus on REX and make preparation, so IMHO, IW can wait untill we finish writing. I don't think Vox is doublecrossing, but in fact, as always, trying to delay us. We shouldn't play their game and hinder our advancement. We can make Vox doublecross (unlikely IMO, but there is a possibility) public when it is more convenient for us. I think that if we wait a little longer, and tell other teams of Vox's other deeds (which are sure to come...) we can gain more favor and get a worldwide support for attacking Vox.

	26-01-2003 22:13									#8
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Is there some way to start researching IW (just in case), and have the trade value of it decrease each turn, so that if and when Vox DOES come to its senses we can negotiate a proper trade? (e.g., they have to give us IW and a certain amount of gold)

	26-01-2003 22:22									#9
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Nah, they'll start crying that we are offering them a lesser deal and cancel it. They'll have legal backing to that: changing the details of this predetermined deal is just the same as violating a contract - the deal is off.

I agree with Zeit. Vox knows exactly what they're doing, and that is delaying our research. We need to start on writing immediately.

	26-01-2003 22:27									#10
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No, we need Iron Working before Writing.

	26-01-2003 23:16									#11
	Re: Re: The REAL Turn 42 Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph What concerns the voxian email addresses for sending the F8 screenie, they are in dejons info thread in the main forum. Eli: shadowmn at netvision dot net dot il Dissident: Krusher3X at yahoo dot com

Shall I go ahead and send the cropped F8 (reduced to just the Histograph section) to those two addresses, then?

	26-01-2003 23:32									#12
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If Vox started a barracks right after The Voice disappeared from the F11 chart, they could rush us with four immortals by the time we could even just research both Writing and Iron Working, much less get iron hooked up (unless we get super-lucky and have iron on Bolderberg's hill). I don't think it's likely, but considering that such a rush could put us out of the game if Vox gets good RNG results, I don't think it's a risk worth taking.

In regard to trying to change the deal, remember that Iron Working is the more expensive tech. Right now we have Vox's commitment to an even swap since they got a more expensive tech in the first stage, but we lose that commitment if we try to demand gold in addition to the tech.

Once things reach a point where it is clear enough that Vox is breaking their commitment that we would feel fully comfortable bringing our case before other teams, we might take the position, "Okay, you've broken your deal with us. We're going ahead and researching Iron Working, and if you want to redeem your word so that we do not spread warnings to other nations regarding your lack of honor, you have to complete the promised trade and pay us back for the gold we lose due to your initial refusal to keep your word." But I think we'd need to allow at least a couple more turns before we'll have a good enough case to bring before the court of international public opinion.

	26-01-2003 23:34									#13
	Re: Re: Re: The REAL Turn 42 Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Shall I go ahead and send the cropped F8 (reduced to just the Histograph section) to those two addresses, then?

Sure, do it, the earlier the better.

	26-01-2003 23:51									#14
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I just got the following from Jon Miller:

quote: I think that Beta expressed our concerns, but did so improperly. Looking over his messages, he told you where we would have been if we had not traded for Iron Working (With our close neighbors to the north). I must admit that we are somewhat worried about your nation, appearing to research so much faster than us and to be better located also. In any case, we just got Iron Working recently (which means that we could do our deal), but would rather get alphabet much much more cheaply from another source. Is there anyway we could get writing from you for ironworking? It is what the other civ wants right now, actually, but we cannot provide them with it in any timely matter (alphabet is so common for them that they are willing to give it away for cheap). We would be willing to give you iron working now, in exchange for writing later.

	27-01-2003 00:02									#15
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Holy schizophrenia, Batman!!

Do I get this right... they are offering to GIVE us IW??!!

Like I said, unstable. How about IW now for Writing and contact later?

	27-01-2003 00:17									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Like I said, unstable. How about IW now for Writing and contact later?

I was thinking along the same lines. Here's a response I've written for Jon Miller and am about to click "send" on:

quote: I've presented your message to the team, but here's my own, personal reaction. Our original arrangement was designed so that the first stage of the trade would give you a higher-value tech and the second would give us a higher-value tech so that the two exchanges would balance. Now you are asking for two consecutive exchanges where you end up with the higher value. Does that seem fair to you? It certainly doesn't to me - especially not when you sound like you want to then trade Writing to another civ to further enrich yourselves. I'm willing to propose the following counter-offer to Gathering Storm: (1) We go ahead with the Iron Working for Alphabet now. (That helps both of us compared with if you would make an exchange with our rival to your north (which I suspect is Lux)). (2) When we get Writing, we trade it to you for whatever contacts with other civs you have at the time. (3) We retain an exclusive right to trade Writing to other civs. Considering that compared with our original agreement, you will be getting Writing for nothing more than contact information, that does not seem like an unreasonable stipulation. (4) You agree not to try to renegotiate the deal further, even if an opportunity comes up where you might be able to get a deal you like better on Writing elsewhere. I don't know how my own team will react to this, and it's certainly not an official proposal yet, but I'll go ahead and bring it up with you at the same time I do with Gathering Storm so you folks can go ahead and start thinking about whether you would agree to it if we make it (or something similar) an official offer. Nathan

	27-01-2003 00:24									#17
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Beautiful!
They will not go back on such a promise. It would be too much.
I suggest that we take the deal (while it's up!), and tell them that the exact details will be worked out later. Give them our most honest word that we will work out a fair deal. Begin researching writing.

Regarding the fair deal I mentioned above, an arrangement where we send them writing, and they in turn send back contacts with Civ X and promise not to sell writing to Civ X (which makes up for the difference in beaker cost between Writing and IW, and the original The Wheel and BW, which sums up to 72 beakers if I'm not mistaken). Seems very fair to me, in fact.
If they don't agree to the patent on writing, then we could suggest that they pay us an additional 45 gold (that should keep them from upgrading any warriors soon) as "royalties". Remind them that we did not ask to put a patent on The Wheel, and that they can broker this tech as well if they wish, as long as they pay us in gold as compensation.

	27-01-2003 00:31									#18
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Nathan, if they take this deal then so will I.
I like the way we're giving them alphabet as well (which they already admitted that they could get almost for free), while hampering their deal with Civ X (certainly this would put a blow in their relations with Civ X, should they agree to this deal), and demanding contacts with all the others civs that they have met (could be more than one) and patent protection.
Marvelous.

	27-01-2003 00:35									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Like I said, unstable.

Not a very attractive trait for a neighbor, I must agree. Let's hope that Civ X are more stable, more trustworthy and are a better research partner.
If we play our cards well, we can eventually leave Vox far behind on the tech race, and by the time we conquer Vox, Civ X would be behind as well...
* Shiber wipes the drool off his chin.

	27-01-2003 00:42									#20
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Vox wouldnt do this if they werent more afraid of Civ X then us. I think that we have proven to them that we are a peace loving people.

	27-01-2003 00:51									#21
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One interesting question is whether The Wheel is what they traded to get Iron Working earlier than they would have otherwise. If so, the first stage of the trade deal was very, very clearly in their favor, and BetaHound's efforts to claim otherwise are laughable.

	27-01-2003 00:59									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia Vox wouldnt do this if they werent more afraid of Civ X then us. I think that we have proven to them that we are a peace loving people.

This looks to me far more like a matter of pursuing technological advantage as best they can given the limitations of their own research capacity than like any kind of matter of fear.

	27-01-2003 01:05									#23
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Here's Jon Miller's unofficial response to my unofficial proposal.

quote: most assuredly writing would be only the first step I personally am (I admit this is unofficial) visualising a trading block of our 3 nations I assure you that we would pass on what was gained from our other neighbor, in exchange for getting future stuff from you (with which we will give to the other trading partner to get future stuff to give to you) I have not been that involved with this, but I think that the other civ would give us something you would want for writing, which we would than pass off to you I will further my idea (and your message) to the other members and find out what we could get from the other civ for writing I erpsoanlly would like to see the three of us conduct our research in a manner by which non is wasted (we were very upset by the waste from our research into ironworking)

	27-01-2003 01:43									#24
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My response (and this time I'll leave it here for at least a while before sending it):

quote: I very much like the idea of a three-way partnership, but would be extremely nervous about engaging in such a partnership on terms where every trade has to go through you. I can understand that you would really like to be in a situation where you can leverage your monopoly on contact with "Civ X" (as we sometimes refer to your mysterious neighbor) to ensure that you do not get left out of the loop, but I hope you can understand our extreme reluctance to accept a situation where our links with the outside world remain so horribly fragile for the foreseeable future. Frankly, a partnership where both the flow of communications and the flow of technology has to go through you would not feel like a true partnership at all (at least to me). What I've envisioned as the best possible scenario beyond Writing (and I've actually had this basic concept in mind for some time now) would be if we research Code of Laws, you research Philosophy, and a third civilization researches Literature. That would set up research for Republic at the earliest possible date, with the ability to build libraries gained along the way to further speed research (and, in the process, enhance our nations' culture). Prior to that, at the Writing stage, it might be possible to line things up so that Civ X will research something else (Mathematics, maybe?) while we research Writing, and then we would trade Writing to Civ X for what they researched and trade what they researched to you for something you research in the meantime. In such an arrangement, I fully recognize that the tech you research would have to be a less valuable one if you are to start work on Philosophy in a timely manner. One other thing about such an arrangement is that techs researched and shared in such a manner would have to be viewed either (1) as joint property, with the proceeds of any sale outside our group (whether gold or additional technology) shared equally or (2) as belonging exclusively (for trading purposes) to the civ that researched the tech. Without such a provision, one of us could betray the others by selling techs researched by all three of us and keeping the proceeds to themselves. Anyhow, that's my current thinking on this matter (and still at highly preliminary stages, since I imagine all three civs will need to give the matter a great deal of thought before making such a long-term formal commitment). Nathan

	27-01-2003 01:56									#25
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Interesting... did you see the comment about lost shields in researching IW? So they did trade for it... when?

They are known liars and cheats.

	27-01-2003 02:02									#26
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If the rest of the team concurs, I'd like to send my message above to Vox with an opening paragraph along the lines of:

quote: Gathering Storm has agreed to make my earlier offer regarding Alphabet, Iron Working, Writing, and contacts official. Of course if a three-way partnership can be arranged, we would be willing to consider amending the deal appropriately.

	27-01-2003 02:29									#27
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I know I sound like a broken record, but I do not see the point of negotiating "unoficially" with members of Vox, posting the results here, and then "going ahead" to "officially" make the proposals. I honestly do not care how Vox handles their diplomacy, but I'm uncomfortable having all dealings between our teams start and end with Nathan and Jon Miller exclusively.

Any "unofficial" communication is probably taken seriously by Vox (we must assume so). So even though we're claiming that we're "just talking", this talk can have diplomatic repercussions. Maybe we will not be interested in a three-way partnership at all once we contact team X, so "unoficially" disussing it is not in our best interests at this time. Maybe the team actually wants to get rid of Vox at the first opportunity (who knows? we haven't had any polls lately).

The whole point of having a school of diplomacy is to discuss these matters, come to an agreement and present a unified and coherent front. So I suggest the diplomats need to do a bit more work during the next few turns pinning down exactly what we do and do not want from Vox. This will create a policy with which Nathan, Sir Ralph or nye can use to play the turns.


Dominae

	27-01-2003 02:33									#28
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I like your proposal, and your wording.

	27-01-2003 02:50									#29
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How does this sound as an official message? Does it reflect the stance we want to take?

quote: Greetings People of Vox Controli, Gathering Storm has agreed to make my earlier offer regarding Alphabet, Iron Working, Writing, and contacts official. The concept of a three-way partnership is definitely an interesting one, but our diplomats and economists really need more time to consider the issue before we can make any kind of commitment, even an informal one. In the meantime, we need to get Iron Working now so we can move on with our research into Writing without undercutting our ability to maintian parity in defensive technologies. Your failure to keep your commitment in a timely manner has already cost us valuable time, and while we can understand your desire to renegotiate in light of changing circumstances, any further delay can only hurt relations between our peoples. Sincerely, The People of Gathering Storm Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist

Edit: Changed a line that Theseus was concerned might express weakness.

	27-01-2003 02:58									#30
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Nathan, very nice! That is exactly the kind of stance I believe we should be taking toward Vox at this point. Even peaceful partners can give each other a push once in a while (see France, Germany and the U.S. for a real-world example).




Dominae