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MichaeltheGreat
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
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mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
That's how the US will kill 1m people, by bombing the major cities. Suppose the Iraqi troops are withdrawn to the cities, the US either tries to force them to surrender by bombing the hell out of the cities, which will result in huge civilian casualties, or dig them out in ground actions, which will result in lots of body bags. |
The total casualties, by the stretchiest, most politically oriented interpretation imaginable (taking nearly every death in the country of someone less than 100 years old) won't come close to a milion.
If the Iraqis retreat into the cities, they have to permanently surrender their mobility, because once dug in, they will never come out and resume mobile operations.
Bridges, railroads, major roadways, etc. will be bombed out quickly to cut down Iraqi mobility, so if they're not in the cities dug in at the outset, most Iraqi forces will never reach there.
The US will establish total ownership of Iraqi airspace within 48 hours (it'll be at the 90%+ level within about 48 minutes  ), so no Iraqi forces will move very far. Once in the cities, and immobile, they can be bypassed and isolated by small screening forces, and once US air and ground forces are able to move in and around and through the country virtually unimpeded, the motivation of most Iraqis to fight for Hussein will totally melt away.
Use of psyops, bribes to commanders, and deals to let "dirty" commanders take a nice soft retirement in friendly Saudi Arabia or the destination of their choice will be used to induce surrender of their forces.
90% of Iraqi forces will be creampuffs. The other 10%? It really depends what they do and where they are in the first couple of days. They could be some trouble, but the whole notion of some protracted campaign is pretty unlikely. The best solution to holdout troops, if there are any, is isolation. So I doubt that casualties will be particularly high on either side, although the usual propaganda suspects will try to make a big deal of anything and everything. 
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Gatekeeper
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United States of America
Feb 2000
time: 23:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Does the million include dead Americans from the wave of terrorist attacks this will surely cause? |
Funny, we weren't doing anything to Afghanistan to really slow down Osama bin Laden and his al-Qaida terrorist network, other than bellyaching about the Buddha statues being destroyed. Funny, we were — under former President Clinton — attempting to mediate a final peace between Israel and the Palestinians. Funny how we sent troops and air power in to keep people — Muslim and Christian alike — alive in Kosovo and hosted the Dayton Accords to hopefully bring peace to the rest of the Balkans disrupted by Yugoslavia's breakup.
Funny how all those *civilized* actions did nothing to dissuade al-Qaida and its minions from bringing down the damn World Trade Center, hitting the Pentagon and bringing down an airliner in Pennsylvania, all on Sept. 11, 2001. I mean, you'd think that working to achieve positive outcomes in those areas described above would've done something for the image of the United States. Apparently not.
My point? The bastards who *hated* us while we were doing all that above in the 1990s continue to hate us now, and an invasion (or non-invasion) or Iraq isn't going to change that one iota. All it will change is the timing of when Saddam Hussein will use what he's got on America now, or five years from now. Oh, and probably our allies as well.
quote:
Or the thousands who will die laughing at the next US attempt at "justifying" the war. Or the US troops that will be killed by their own side. Including this lot a million seems like a conservative estimate. |
Let them die laughing, then. Better that than dying in a flaming skyscraper. Better than dying in a bomb blast. Better than dying from a chemical weapons attack in a subway. Better than dying at a concert packed with young people. To die laughing is a good way to go, rather than being torn asunder by shrapnel.
As for friendly fire incidents, they're always tragic.
quote:
One thing's for sure, unlike 911, hardly anyone is going to feel sorry for you next time. |
You know what? It's only a matter of time before al-Qaida or any of its associated allies succeed in causing a Sept. 11, 2001, event (or multiples thereof) in Europe. You think backing away from the United States, wailing and gnashing your teeth about U.S. policy is going to spare you from al-Qaida, et al.? Think again, buddy. At most, it will move you down their target list a bit while they continue to deal with the good old US of A and those who walk in stride with us. Eventually, though, they'll return their focus to you and the vaunted security forces will fail and then the blood of thousands will stain Europe in a single horrible day or two. Not dozens or hundreds of dead spread out over years or even decades, but *thousands* in a single strike, in a matter of hours.
I bet those poor folks on Bali thought they'd never be targeted, hmm? Well, Europe is just another Bali waiting to happen, except on a larger scale.
Gatekeeper
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Zylka
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I think this thread's 100th post just begs the notation that:
IT'S GOING TO BE ANOTHER VIETNAM!!!
(WAKE UP, PEOPLE)
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Capt Dizle
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I am going to predict that sometime before the US launches a full air attack against Iraq (which will not happen until US troops are in their jumping off sites) that someone inside the Iraqi government will sell Saddam out and he will be either killed or captured by joint US/UK special opps troops.
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DinoDoc
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AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
What is this opinion based on? |
A year long study of foreign elite opinion conducted by Vladimir Shlapentokh Joshua Woods. Here's a few of the highlights:
quote:
When we ranked the images used among elites abroad for the USA, "rich culture or strong educational institutions" ranked 37th; "technologically advanced" was 14th. Even "brave, courageous or bold" ranked 31st. These and many other positive U.S. images were eclipsed by "tries to impose its will on other countries" (second place), "cares only for its narrow interest" (fifth), "warlike" (sixth), "hypocritical" (eighth), "arrogant" (10th) and "terrorist" (13th). |
The study analyzed more than 4,000 articles from the 10 largest newspapers in China, Colombia, Egypt, Germany, India and Russia. You can find some more info here.
quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Oh and the Bali incident was aimed at US citizens, the bomber was just too dumb and got Australians instead. |
According to OBL, the bombing was in retaliation for the Aussies' "anti-muslim" actions in East Timor and Afghanistan.
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HershOstropoler
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That it is used to support:
quote:
A lot of people never felt sorry last time. The so-called out pouring of sympathy never really materialized and the overwhelming msg among editorials and letters to the editor in the foreign press was "you had it coming, you arrogant bastards. |
That the US government "tries to impose its will on other countries" (second place), "cares only for its narrow interest" (fifth), "warlike" (sixth), "hypocritical" (eighth), "arrogant" (10th) and "terrorist" (13th) does not translate into what Dino claims. I assume he is just misunderstanding - there was a genuine puzzlement in the european press at least at many americans' puzzlement why they are hated. Looking for the reasons of that hatred does not equal endorsing it, although the rabid right always wants to portray it this way.
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HershOstropoler
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Then why don't you quote the relevant rest ?
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Apolyton Time is 00:25. |
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28-01-2003 06:12
ACK!
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