30-01-2003 04:03									#92
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Oh come on. Someone argue with me - please try to refute my points, it's fun!

	30-01-2003 04:12									#93
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Oh come on. Someone argue with me - please try to refute my points, it's fun!

Why would someone try and refute the truth? (dont get big headed, just cause your right once, doesn't mean your always right!)

	30-01-2003 04:13									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman I suspect the faith that some American posters have in airpower is misplaced.

Why do you say this, out of curiosity?

	30-01-2003 04:58									#95
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I suspect that the economic and industrial gap would only widen in favor of the US.

You suspect incorrectly. At the end of WW2, the US had 1/2 the world's economy and was spending ~20% of it on the military. Now, we have something like 1/4 and dropping.

Don't get me wrong. This is a good trend, since it indicates that the overall global pie is growing briskly. But it does mean our relative power is dropping and has been dropping for over 50 years.

	30-01-2003 05:11									#96
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quote: You suspect incorrectly. At the end of WW2, the US had 1/2 the world's economy and was spending ~20% of it on the military. Now, we have something like 1/4 and dropping.

Currently we have something like 23% or so. The 50% number was rather artificial, due to the fact of a major war raging in or around 4 of the 5 major industrial centers of the world - Germany, Britain, USSR, and Japan.

quote: Don't get me wrong. This is a good trend, since it indicates that the overall global pie is growing briskly. But it does mean our relative power is dropping and has been dropping for over 50 years.

I totally agree. But my point was that in a war with China, which would necessarily be fought over or near China, not the US, China's economic and industrial power would contract, while the US would expand. Relative to the rest of the world, the US might still be dropping (due to Third World industrialization primarily), but relative to China, I suspect that the US would increase in economic/industrial power for the duration of the war, and after the war until China could rebuild/re-establish lost overseas trade. Remember, too, where China's ports are - on the East Coast, easily interdicted by the USN.

	30-01-2003 05:36									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer The Serbs only got our F117 because they locked a SAM onto its heat sig, not its radar image.

If it works, it really doesn't matter how you bring it down.

	30-01-2003 05:37									#98
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The F-117 also isn't that great of an aircraft anymore - it's only 1st generation stealth technology.

	30-01-2003 05:50									#99
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US military power vs anyone else in the world is greater than it was 50 years ago. We didn't have a tech edge back then. Now we are far ahead in tech and WAY ahead in applied tech. We have the force and the ability to project it anywhere, augmenting the forces deployed around the globe. No enemy could stand for long vs the US today. That couldn't be said back then.

The power of the United States is at its highest point ever.

Regarding applied tech, we have stealth aircraft, everyone else has either abandoned or scaled down their programs...which are years down the line. We have super night vision...hundreds of thousands of units, in US troops hands now. I believe we have advanced densitometers that can see enemy troops through walls. This may come out after the Iraq war is over. We have satalites that can tell the brand you smoke from the butt in your mouth, bombs that are smart...and getting brilliant...the world's best aircraft carriers all over the world, carrying the best aircraft ever made...it goes on and on.

Nothing short of divine intervention can stop the US military.

I couldn't have said that 50 years back.

	30-01-2003 06:08									#100
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So to sum up, the Serbs can shoot down "advanced" airplanes that are older than me, the Chinese are trying to get similar jets, and David Floyd has discovered the joy in bragging about how much America kicks ass, instead of always whining about the Constitution.

Did I miss anything?

	30-01-2003 06:12									#101
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Yeah, my post on HOW the Serbs shot the 117 down. They got lucky when a missile locked on to its heat sig...not its radar sig.

	30-01-2003 06:36									#102
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That's like saying that Ming "got lucky" and deleted your posts by following the trail of your post signature instead of you. Either way, the objective is terminated successfully.

	30-01-2003 06:38									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Felch X So to sum up, the Serbs can shoot down "advanced" airplanes that are older than me, the Chinese are trying to get similar jets, and David Floyd has discovered the joy in bragging about how much America kicks ass, instead of always whining about the Constitution. Did I miss anything?

nope, that about covers it

	30-01-2003 06:49									#104
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Actually the 'how' is all important. The plane was built to not show up on radar, but all planes show heat. If you fill the sky with heat seeking missiles 24 hours a day you might shoot down lots of 117's. Or, if you launch one heat seeker at engine noises there's always the chance you'll get lucky...as happened w/ the Serbs.

Even our mere 1st gen stealth is still a great weapons system, better than any other aircraft for getting in, hitting and getting out. The "objective was terminated successfully" is quite true from the US pov. The US hammered the Serbs until they went belly up, period. Their mass murdering leader then is today rotting in some prison somewhere.

The 117 played a part in that, doing a great job dessimating the military of the enemy with the loss of only a single plane.

	30-01-2003 09:27									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer The US hammered the Serbs until they went belly up, period.

Well, at least we hammered them until we agreed to their demands.

	30-01-2003 10:26									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer US military power vs anyone else in the world is greater than it was 50 years ago. We didn't have a tech edge back then. Now we are far ahead in tech and WAY ahead in applied tech. We have the force and the ability to project it anywhere, augmenting the forces deployed around the globe. No enemy could stand for long vs the US today. That couldn't be said back then.

Arrogance and ignorance both are virtues....
for your future enemies.

quote: The power of the United States is at its highest point ever. Regarding applied tech, we have stealth aircraft, everyone else has either abandoned or scaled down their programs...which are years down the line. We have super night vision...hundreds of thousands of units, in US troops hands now. I believe we have advanced densitometers that can see enemy troops through walls. This may come out after the Iraq war is over. We have satalites that can tell the brand you smoke from the butt in your mouth, bombs that are smart...and getting brilliant...the world's best aircraft carriers all over the world, carrying the best aircraft ever made...it goes on and on. Nothing short of divine intervention can stop the US military.

*THROW UP*

	30-01-2003 10:32									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Actually the 'how' is all important. The plane was built to not show up on radar, but all planes show heat. If you fill the sky with heat seeking missiles 24 hours a day you might shoot down lots of 117's. Or, if you launch one heat seeker at engine noises there's always the chance you'll get lucky...as happened w/ the Serbs.

Yeah sure They launched their heat seekers 24hpd. IIRC your staelth was shoot down by S-75, damn old Soviet SAM. If there were dozen of S-300, I doubt you had balls to launch an air war.

quote: The 117 played a part in that, doing a great job dessimating the military of the enemy with the loss of only a single plane.

Yeah, sure A gang of dozen of most industrialized countries of the world who had ten times more and MUCH modern planes spend few months to defeat small country and only after you've start to bomb civilian targets. Great victory, you should be proud.

	30-01-2003 10:38									#108
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When's the last time Russia won a war, Serb? More importantly, when was the last time Russia won a war without US help? You guys are our *****; just admit it.

	30-01-2003 10:43									#109
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Military conquest, no, but then again, look at which country is still around

We were talking about butt kicking, remember?

quote: As of this moment, the US is militarily invincible, from the context of any CONCEIVABLE war. Sure, you can fantasize a scenario of a land war where China charges with 60 million soldiers, but that isn't conceivable. Any conceivable Sino-US war would be fought on or near mainland China, and that in itself is a huge advantage for the US and corresponding disadvantage for China.

There are no invincible countries, armies as well as kickboxers for example. Sooner or later some one will kick your as$ on the ring and later this guy will be beaten by next guy and so on. Thinking that you are invincible is really stupid. When you think so, you start to understimate your enemy which is damn big mistake. Such thinking leads only to much sooner defeat.

quote: You're misquoting - "Never fight a ground war in Asia" is the real gist of it.

Ground, sea, air, big difference- just don't fight there that's the meaning

	30-01-2003 10:44									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Yeah sure They launched their heat seekers 24hpd. IIRC your staelth was shoot down by S-75, damn old Soviet SAM. If there were dozen of S-300, I doubt you had balls to launch an air war. Yeah, sure A gang of dozen of most industrialized countries of the world who had ten times more and MUCH modern planes spend few months to defeat small country and only after you've start to bomb civilian targets. Great victory, you should be proud.

This takes me back...
I should start another "US vs. Russia" thread, those are always fun

	30-01-2003 10:50									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten When's the last time Russia won a war, Serb?

Three years ago- Chechnya. Anyhow during its history Russia won hundreds of times more wars then USA ever saw.

quote: More importantly, when was the last time Russia won a war without US help?

Vietnam and a couple of times in Africa.

quote: You guys are our *****; just admit it.

Huya lysogo

	30-01-2003 10:52									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman This takes me back... I should start another "US vs. Russia" thread, those are always fun

Enjoy the show

	30-01-2003 10:55									#113
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quote: Three years ago- Chechnya.

I meant real wars, not internal conflicts.

quote: Vietnam and a couple of times in Africa.

Since when did Russians fight in Vietnam and Africa? Proxies don't count...

quote: Anyhow during its history Russia won hundreds of times more wars then USA ever saw.

Prove it. I'm having trouble remembering many non-assisted Russian victories; it's hard to remember them amongst all the losses...

	30-01-2003 10:56									#114
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btw, Serb, Lancer speaks the truth. The US military is all but untouchable nowadays, adn the gap continues to grow.

Check out Popular Science's recent Hard cover special adition, entitled "21st Century Soldier". It basically details stuff that should be coming out in the US arsenal over the course of the next quarter century.

Some cool stuff to note:

Fully wired, full body 'smart armor', carbon fiber and ceramics give protection against all but the most powerful of small arms. Also might be able to automatically form casts over broken bones and apply pressure to gunshot wounds, as well as apply medicine and drugs.

OICW guided grenade launcher/assault rifle (coming out in a few years)

Space based and high altitude aircraft based microwave and conventional laser weapons.

guided artillery shells (already out in small numbers and for certain weapons)

supercavitating torpedo - speeds of around 15km/ 10seconds (really cool)

naval based rail guns (coolest of all) which could fire projectiles over 500 miles with a speed of Mach 10 (the planned leviathan battleship on which a couple of these will be mounted is really cool in itself...)

and much, much more, especially in the realm of automation.

When our enemies will be fighting as they did in 1970, we will be ever applying the latest of technologies to military use. The US has an achilles heel tho, but I can garuntee it isnt in our military now, or anytime soon.

Kman

	30-01-2003 11:11									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I meant real wars, not internal conflicts.

Well, if we are talking about REAL wars, then our last real war was Great patriotic war (you call it WW2).

quote: Since when did Russians fight in Vietnam and Africa? Proxies don't count...

Don't you know?
Watch Rambo2 and "Red Scorpion", dude.

btw, when was the last time when USA won a war without Russian help? Never heard that ammo for your troops during Afghanistan campaign were delivered through Russian territory? Not to mention air bases. And in general, when was the last time USA won a war ALONE? I don't remember such victories in recent times....hmm war for independence perhaps? Hmmm....strange....French comes to mind.

quote: Prove it. I'm having trouble remembering many non-assisted Russian victories; it's hard to remember them amongst all the losses...

This list is too long. Wars vs. Hitler, Napoleon, Mongols, Turks, Swedes, Poles, etc. This list contains war vs almost all our neighbors. Oh...and also intervention of 14 foreign countries (including your own) during Russian civil war after Boltshevick's revolution etc.

	30-01-2003 11:18									#116
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quote: Well, if we are talking about REAL wars, then our last real war was Great patriotic war (you call it WW2).

Don't forget Afghanistan. You got your butts kicked by the guys we Americans waxed with ease.

quote: btw, when was the last time when USA won a war without Russian help?

Kosovo wasn't very long ago.

quote: This list is too long. Wars vs. Hitler, Napoleon, Mongols, Turks, Swedes, Poles, etc. This list contains war vs almost all our neighbors.

You needed our help to beat the Nazis. You didn't beat Napoleon or the Mongols. I'll give you the Turks, Swedes and Poles, but I wouldn't be too proud of those. Russia seems to fall a little short when facing real competition...

	30-01-2003 11:39									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman Some cool stuff to note: Fully wired, full body 'smart armor', carbon fiber and ceramics give protection against all but the most powerful of small arms. Also might be able to automatically form casts over broken bones and apply pressure to gunshot wounds, as well as apply medicine and drugs.

This thing exist only as concept art

quote: OICW guided grenade launcher/assault rifle (coming out in a few years)

Ok, educate me what the heck is OICW?

quote: Space based and high altitude aircraft based microwave and conventional laser weapons.

Big deal

quote: guided artillery shells (already out in small numbers and for certain weapons)

Already have them, more probably you've stole it from us.

quote: supercavitating torpedo - speeds of around 15km/ 10seconds (really cool)

Really? No kidding? 10*6*15*60=5400 Km per hour? Faster then planes?
At this moment the fastest torpedo is Russian "Shkval" which travels at speeds 300 Km per hour. Pentagon wasted years to stole it and create something eqaul, since "Shkval" was created in 80s. Last attempt was not so long ago, when mr. Pope was trying to steal blueprints of this weapon. Now you claims that you have ten times faster torpedo. Where did you get it? How it works?

quote: naval based rail guns (coolest of all) which could fire projectiles over 500 miles with a speed of Mach 10 (the planned leviathan battleship on which a couple of these will be mounted is really cool in itself...)

At current moment the largest battleship is Russian Peter the Great of "Kirov" class. I doubt that on distances about 500 miles accuracy of rail guns could be somewhere near the accuracy of Peter the Great missiles.

quote: The US has an achilles heel tho,

These are the words of wise man

	30-01-2003 11:57									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Don't forget Afghanistan. You got your butts kicked by the guys we Americans waxed with ease.

Not real by our standarts. Anyhow, we weren't beaten there. we withdrawn from there only SU started to fall apart, untill this moment we controled largest part of this country for ten years and lost 14500 soldiers during this. Compare this with American perfomance in Vietnam- 60 000 KIA. As for last Afghan campaign, don't be ridiculus these two wars have nothing common aside theater of war. And Northern Alliance (equiped with Russian weapons and tanks btw) did all dirty work for you (fought in ground battles, while your pilots just drop bombs or launch missile from safe distance like...nevermind).

quote: Kosovo wasn't very long ago.

And you was alone there, sure Great victory- the gang of thugs vs. single guy.

quote: You needed our help to beat the Nazis.

At the same scale as you needed our help to defeat Japan Ipmerial Army.

quote: You didn't beat Napoleon or the Mongols.

Sure, Russian winter did it.

quote: I'll give you the Turks, Swedes and Poles,

Thank you very much, what about intervention during civil war when you- Yanks, Brits, French, Japanese and many others were running from my country with your tails between your legs?

quote: but I wouldn't be too proud of those. Russia seems to fall a little short when facing real competition...

Real competition? What could you know about this? I don't remember a single case when America engaged in war vs. real competitor. All you can do is to bully weak, small countries and even for this you always gather wide coalition (iow, don't have balls to fight alone).

Have a nice day.

	30-01-2003 12:01									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Sure, Russian winter did it.

WRT Napoleon, it certainly wasn't the Russian army that beat him.

	30-01-2003 12:04									#120
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Yearh, sure St. Claus did it.