27-01-2003 17:57									#1
	Should I christin(Baptise) my kid Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

My little boy Joseph was born on 4th Jan and i don't know whether to have him christianed(I should learn to spell it first).

I'm pretty much an agnostic but my Mother and Wife want it.

I can't see teh point and think its a little bit hypocritical, or should I just shut uo and have it done.

	27-01-2003 18:00									#2
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His birthday's the day before mine!

I dunno, my cousin had a naming day for his kid, not a religious thing but still got the family and friends together for a social occasion to meet the baby etc.

	27-01-2003 18:02									#3
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I'd say just have it done, though it means nothing. Baptism without faith is a bath.

	27-01-2003 18:03									#4
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Well, I personally wouldn't - don't see the point - but if your wife wants to why not? Holy water won't hurt him...

...will it?

	27-01-2003 18:11									#5
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quote: Originally posted by orange Well, I personally wouldn't - don't see the point - but if your wife wants to why not? Holy water won't hurt him... ...will it?

Well i did notice 3 numbers on his head......

	27-01-2003 18:27									#6
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What's the procedure for getting a kid baptized nowadays?

Do the parents need to declare that they believe in God, or attend church for a while?

And they're supposed to select "godparents" who are (at least theoretically) responsible for ensuring that the kid grows up to be a "good Christian". Do the godparents have to swear that they believe in God? And if they do, but they know that the kid isn't going to be raised as a Christian: is it OK if they knowingly lie about their committment to that?

Normally I'd have no objections to "going through the motions" at a Christian ceremony. But baptism involves such blatant lying and hypocrisy that I think I'd have problems with it.

It's not like a wedding or a funeral, where the purpose of the ceremony isn't specifically religious. This one consists entirely of ritual lying while making false promises to indoctrinate a child into a religion that he is currently not capable of choosing voluntarily.

Quite a few Christians don't approve of it.

	27-01-2003 18:46									#7
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This is the problem, I hate the lying and hypocrisy.

I dislike the church alot (C of E) in this case but the catholics and all the other protestant ones are just as bad. Standing up and saying will instruct him in the ways of the church and GOD is a blatant lie as i will bore him stupid telling him how much crap teh church talks.

I only know 1 potential religious Godparent (the rest wouldn't know their new testamnet from their old.) ans she's catholic so that might be a problem.

	27-01-2003 18:59									#8
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quote: This one consists entirely of ritual lying while making false promises to indoctrinate a child into a religion that he is currently not capable of choosing voluntarily.

Here at least, Baptism tends more to be saying that you are there for guidance on the Christian faith. And regards the voluntary status of it, thats what Confirmation is about.

	27-01-2003 19:00									#9
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My parents never baptized me, saying they wanted me to choose for myself. This is off course very wrong, since I won't do it unless I have to and will burn in the flames of hell as a sinner...

	27-01-2003 19:06									#10
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It's only hypocritiical if yo have yourself baptized.
Since it obviously isn't that big a deal to you, why not make the wife happy, for a change ?

	27-01-2003 19:08									#11
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand It's only hypocritiical if yo have yourself baptized. Since it obviously isn't that big a deal to you, why not make the wife happy, for a change ?

As she is married to me how could she be more happier

	27-01-2003 19:10									#12
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Ok, your mother.

	27-01-2003 19:19									#13
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Ok, your mother.

My Mother would blame the chicken if i was caught molesting one

	27-01-2003 19:28									#14
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger Well i did notice 3 numbers on his head......

Mmmm, take photos of your family, friends, neighbours and yourself. If you see some strange light effects that increase on time better change your legacy legal note

	27-01-2003 19:33									#15
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In the Mormon Church, we wait until the kids 8 till we have them baptise the kid.

	27-01-2003 19:40									#16
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You go to a site packed with Atheists, to ask for validation of Agnostic/Atheist beliefs you hold ?

Change the scenario a little.
If you found out you were to die today, you'd have no qualms knowing that your wife and your mother were planning an elaborate Church ceremony, complete with not merely a headstone, but a full size statue of a religious nature, emgraved with somethng, I don't know, like "Here Lies Stinger. Finally Home With His Creator".

After all, they're believers, and shouldn't feel like hypocrites. Right?

	27-01-2003 19:46									#17
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It won't do any harm and it might make your mother and wife happy.

	27-01-2003 19:50									#18
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He doesn't care if they're happy. He said that already.

	27-01-2003 19:56									#19
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Well, then he is sounding very stubburn and why ask us if he's already made up his mind?

	27-01-2003 20:04									#20
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I haven't made up my mind at all.

I just thought there must be some heathens amongst you who had had their kids baptized.

Lets face it in the end my wife and Mum are gonna have a veto over any decision i want

	27-01-2003 20:13									#21
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I think this is a decision you and your wife need to make together. Thats the only advice I can give.

	27-01-2003 20:27									#22
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger Lets face it in the end my wife and Mum are gonna have a veto over any decision i want

Will they insist on dragging the kid off to church every week, and enrolling him/her into Sunday School and so forth?

If not, then it's your wife who has to tell a pack of lies to the vicar. And the godparents, of course.

But I still don't know if you will be asked about your own beliefs. I know many vicars won't marry a non-Christian in church (even to a Christian).

You might be able to use it as a bargaining counter: "I'll go along with this, if YOU agree not to make the kid go to church or Sunday School".

	27-01-2003 20:27									#23
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I think you should. Reasons:

1) Make your wife happy (very important)
2) Make your mother happy
3) Avoid long, useless discussions with zealots who will refuse to understand why you didn't do it
4) Just in case...

	27-01-2003 20:35									#24
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I think it better to have a religious upbringing in full awareness of its flaws, than to have an areligious upbringing and deride it without understanding it.

quote: Standing up and saying will instruct him in the ways of the church and GOD is a blatant lie as i will bore him stupid telling him how much crap teh church talks.

Don't say that, agree with the priest or vicar a wording that is suitable and acceptable to you.

	27-01-2003 20:38									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless Will they insist on dragging the kid off to church every week, and enrolling him/her into Sunday School and so forth? If not, then it's your wife who has to tell a pack of lies to the vicar. And the godparents, of course. But I still don't know if you will be asked about your own beliefs. I know many vicars won't marry a non-Christian in church (even to a Christian). You might be able to use it as a bargaining counter: "I'll go along with this, if YOU agree not to make the kid go to church or Sunday School".

My Mum stopped going to church after my Dad died and my wife doesn't go so they wouldn't make him go. Its more a tradition thing.

The other(agin hypocritical thing) is that church schools are generally better than stae ones and it is a big help to get them in if they are christened

	27-01-2003 20:47									#26
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According to this article, "only 21% of infants born during 1999 were baptized into the Church".

So "it's normal, everyone else does it" wouldn't work.

quote: I think it better to have a religious upbringing in full awareness of its flaws, than to have an areligious upbringing and deride it without understanding it.

It's quite possible to teach a kid about religion without having to pretend that you believe in it.

I would be proud to raise an atheistic kid who knows more about Christianity than any Christian he meets.

	27-01-2003 20:49									#27
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Are you actually going to stand up to your wife over this?

Pick your battles carefully, my friend, pick your battles .

	27-01-2003 20:49									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless It's quite possible to teach a kid about religion without having to pretend that you believe in it.

I don't disagree but by analogy living in a country teaches you more than reading about it.

	27-01-2003 21:10									#29
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger The other(agin hypocritical thing) is that church schools are generally better than stae ones and it is a big help to get them in if they are christened

Then it is obviously in the best interests of you child to have it done. As a parent why wouldn't you do something which might help your child's future especially if there is so little down side? Not doing it sounds like personal pride which normally isn't a good way to make choices.

	27-01-2003 21:32									#30
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He could simply lie about having had his kid christened.

Why is this any worse than lying during the ceremony itself?