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Dominae
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Ok, I'm going to post something constructive (I'm tired of being a troll!):
Where does the deal with Vox stand if we lose the GL? We can still get another Wonder (nothing comparably good, but that's the nature of the gamble); what does Vox get? Vox should really bring this up themselves, but it would a friendly gesture on our part to explore all the eventualities, for their benefit as well as ours.
Dominae
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Dominae
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I suggest we propose 4 Workers as compensation. My feeling is that they will agree to this, since we're essentially attaching strings for them. No need to lose 2 Workers, even to an ally.
Dominae
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:25
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I will vote all the way.
However, I have some trepidation about lowering our guard for the next however many terms funneling in workers. I still don't trust vox, I think they would sell us out in a heartbeat if they thought they could get away with it.
As long as vox agrees to not encroach on our lands, I am ok with this, because if something happens, we could switch to, say, the colossus, not lose that many shields, and be ok in the long run. Thankfully our scouts will see anything coming, unless via galleys.
If we get this started now, the worker pump, then hopefully we will be back to normal just as the others are getting mapmaking, thus delaying any attack on us until we are more prepared. I have concerns vox would tell the others what we are doing, so they would launch an attack.
Assuming this option wins, when will hurricane start on a prebuild? Next turn? Are we then going for literature first, or Republic and then trade vox the other? Are we going to fire the GA to boost hurricane or wait till republic?
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Dominae
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I think we've got a shot at it, but I also think it's a good idea to come up with a fallback plan.
1. Pyramids
2. Colossus
3. Great Lighthouse
4. Hanging Gardens
etc.
Some of these we will have to plan for more than others (HG, especially).
If we set ourselves up for a win-win situation (GL or "something good"), the Wonder commitment (which includes Vox) will not feel so risky.
Dominae
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Dominae
I think we've got a shot at it, but I also think it's a good idea to come up with a fallback plan.
1. Pyramids
2. Colossus
3. Great Lighthouse
4. Hanging Gardens
etc.
Some of these we will have to plan for more than others (HG, especially).
If we set ourselves up for a win-win situation (GL or "something good"), the Wonder commitment (which includes Vox) will not feel so risky.
Dominae |
I think the best choice out of those would be the lighthouse, as it is definite that we will take to the seas at some point. And even if we can't mass an invasion force before magnetism, it would allow us to more easily find all the other civs and map the world earlier. Granted, if we just have to travel one square to hit lux, its benefits are more negligible, but still....more sea and ocean explored, a monopoly on lego and GoW (?) contacts. We become the puppet masters.
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Dominae
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Apart from the timing on our GA, I personally prefer the Pyramids. If we're going all out on a Wonder, we should get it at a very useful (i.e. early) time period (unlike in most SP games). I'm sure we can think of wonderful things to do with a GA-enabled pop boom.
Dominae
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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:25
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Good discussion so far. I'm short on time, so I'll be brief with my comments:
- If we're going all-out for the GL, a loan from Vox would be a great idea. They could give us workers, and we in return could pay them, say, 60 gold for every worker, or one free medieval age tech for every three workers, but not a tech for each worker as was suggested.
Loaning workers has a great advantage over building our own, because this won't hamper our early growth. If we can get as much as two, maybe even three workers from Vox, that would make a significant difference.
- We can join workers into Hurricane and not use the lux slider, at least for during most of the production. IIRC, Vox told us that they have a luxury that is not furs or ivory. Assuming that they are telling the truth (which is a wild assumption  ): if we hook up our incense as well, and if we build a harbor and tell Vox to do so as well, and find a sea route to their harbor with a galley, we could get a third luxury from a trade deal. With three luxuries and on chieftain level, we'll be able to support up to 10 citizens in Hurricane without using the lux slider.
IMHO, we should look into this possibility during the next chat.
- Finally, DO NOT tell them that we are planning on building the GL! If we do, they'll know that our expansion and unit building will be slowed down for a long while, and they may take advantage of that - you know how opportunistic Vox is.
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Dominae
Apart from the timing on our GA, I personally prefer the Pyramids. If we're going all out on a Wonder, we should get it at a very useful (i.e. early) time period (unlike in most SP games). I'm sure we can think of wonderful things to do with a GA-enabled pop boom.
Dominae |
Did someone do a cost/benefit analysis of the pyramids vs graineries in the cities? Is it worth it, especially if we don't take vox out till the industrial or modern age?
I would prefer triggering the GA though a one turn war with Vox. trade a warriors life for 50 gold or a tech or something.
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Shiber
Good discussion so far. I'm short on time, so I'll be brief with my comments:
- If we're going all-out for the GL, a loan from Vox would be a great idea. They could give us workers, and we in return could pay them, say, 60 gold for every worker, or one free medieval age tech for every three workers, but not a tech for each worker as was suggested.
Loaning workers has a great advantage over building our own, because this won't hamper our early growth. If we can get as much as two, maybe even three workers from Vox, that would make a significant difference.
- We can join workers into Hurricane and not use the lux slider, at least for during most of the production. IIRC, Vox told us that they have a luxury that is not furs or ivory. Assuming that they are telling the truth (which is a wild assumption ): if we hook up our incense as well, and if we build a harbor and tell Vox to do so as well, and find a sea route to their harbor with a galley, we could get a third luxury from a trade deal. With three luxuries and on chieftain level, we'll be able to support up to 10 citizens in Hurricane without using the lux slider.
IMHO, we should look into this possibility during the next chat.
- Finally, DO NOT tell them that we are planning on building the GL! If we do, they'll know that our expansion and unit building will be slowed down for a long while, and they may take advantage of that - you know how opportunistic Vox is. |
How do you propose we get Vox to give us their workers if they do not know what we are doing with them? I think they will be suspicious-like we are paying them to make us more powerful by bleeding their population.
What can we say? Uh, if we join your workers to our cities, then we will be affected by war weariness more, therfore we can't attack? Questionable logic there, at least, chieftain is laughable.
Or, uh, we are building infrastructure. Which they woudl know is a lie if they saw that their units weren't working. I suppose we could use them as soft money workers, using them to improve, and moving all current workers to the city, but.....
Plus, part of the deal is workers for future techs. How else could the be somewhat guaranteed of the return value?
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:25
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Well... if the GL wins, we need to discuss about the specifics. Nathan, you made a good point as to scaring Vox if they find out we won't be good tech traders. But some arrangement can be made, e.g. a promise that they will be able to get all techs, for half the beaker cost in gold (tech costs 300 beakers, they get it from us for 150). They shouldn't feel left out like that.
One problem is telling them when we start on it: I don't want to tell them we're planning, or building it until after we get a border treaty with them, and some kind of guarantee they're not going to bother us the next 40 turns. We need the peace treaty fast.
OTOH, if we want slaves from them to help us build the GL, it has to be fast too: 15 turns after starting, a slave won't do any good anymore, as we will already be at size 9. So we have to be reasonably fast to propose it to them too.
Fall-back: Pyramids, Lighthouse and Collosus are the most obvious backup wonders, all of which we should be able to get the tech for. HG is normally nice, but we don't need the happines, and it's obsolete quickly. Getting to monarchy is however a possibility: we can ask that Vox goes that way, as they're already busy on mysticism. But, I'd rather have them on MM instead...
If we go for it, we most likely need to bee-line to literature, if we want to be sure we've got the tech before our prebuild ends. Normally, the pyramids won't be built in a MP game before the GL, so there is no risk that we need to fall back to a palace prebuild (possibly losing the race). But if we would go for MM, maybe we don't have enough time to get literature in time.
I would continue research while we're building, just as a small precaution... I believe the chance of getting the GL is high, but in case we won't get it, we don't have to be left behind either.
Vox slaves compensation in case of bad luck: first of all, it is a risky loan, with high interests, but possible failure as well. Vox has to understand this. So, if we fail, we can have a compensation like 'for every slave you gave us, we give you 1 back'. Nothing too fancy, the rewards are high, but there is some risk to it that we don't have to take alone.
Other deals are surely possible, to not leave Vox out, one of the first could be that they research MM... we need contacts, so we need galleys. The faster these come, the better. If we only know Vox, the GL won't do any good, and with Vox and Lux, it won't be much better...
DeepO
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by DeepO
Vox slaves compensation in case of bad luck: first of all, it is a risky loan, with high interests, but possible failure as well. Vox has to understand this. So, if we fail, we can have a compensation like 'for every slave you gave us, we give you 1 back'. Nothing too fancy, the rewards are high, but there is some risk to it that we don't have to take alone.
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If they accepted such a deal, they know less about the game than we think. 1 worker in 1000BC is worth zounds more than 1 Worker in 10AD. It would be interesting to propose the deal as you say, just to see what their reaction is, but we'll probably end up losing face when they call us on it.
Concerning Workers and the GL: I see no middle ground here. Either we inform Vox of our plan and ask for the Workers (which they may or may not give), or we continue REXing. If they refuse to give us Workers, we must stop the project altogether. Building the GL without Vox's Worker-support is far too risky.
Dominae
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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Arrian
Why in the world would a civ that is low on food give up workers at this stage of the game?
Then again, this might be a great test to find out if they really are as dumb as the chat logs make them out to be (oh, we didn't know war chariots can't go through jungle, etc).
I still vote for the Colossus, since it offers a good return on a much smaller investment. We can REX *and* build the Colossus. |
With borders already predrawn, the cost of giving up those workers goes down dramatically. Yes it sets them back, but it doesn't mean losing ground in terms of how many cities they'll end up with the way it would in SP. And being assured of being able to keep up with the rest of the world in tech through Education would be something extremely valuable to them given the kind of position they're in, assuming the terms are set appropriately.
Note that with the tech leaders trading techs, the gold price we charge Vox for techs would probably need to be well under half the research cost, since otherwise, they'd still fall behind any time other civs trade. But at more like 30% (with Republic and another ancient tech to be determined free), we'd get some extra profit above and beyond our free techs and Vox would get techs at bargain-basement prices in return for its up-front investment. There's room for an arrangement by which our building the Great Library is clearly beneficial to both civs; we just have to work to try to make the deal clearly in Vox's interest instead of trying to squeeze as much as we can out of them.
Nathan
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Dominae
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DeepO, if we go for the GL alone, we're back to building a Wonder in favor of expansion. Forget that all our city-sites are reserved through a potential deal with Vox, we still lose out by having our cities up and running a lot later than we could. Arguments like: "Well, it's only something like 15 turns lost because Eye produces Workers so fast" are flawed, because any Worker we join to Hurricane is not improving the land around our future cities, creating quite the disparity in economic potential between the two scenarios (GL or no).
The only way the GL makes sense is if we get Workers from Vox. Unfortunately this option is also problematic.
Another point: what kind of return do we expect from the GL (how many techs, and which ones)? I guarantee our human (smart) opponents will get to Education as quickly as possible just to thwart our efforts. The way trading is going, the other teams will be well on their way to the Medieval age by the time we get the GL (if we do). There are other things in Civ3 than the tech race.
Dominae
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Sir Ralph
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Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:25
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Give it up, Dominae. We're not talking reason here, we're just playing. If we win, great. If we lose, so what?
In 50 turns we could be done with our REX, and at least 50% of our cities could already have a decent infrastructure and we could have an awesome research pace. Instead of this we:
- throw away a ready built settler factory
- totally neglect our defense
- start to build a new granary in another city and repeat the just completed work of 2000 years around EotS in another city.
- pray and hope that neither our ally nor other civs will attack us. If they do, we again throw away all we did for the wonder and prepare for defense
- assume (and even hope, in the threads), that our opponents are weak players
- are content to meet the year 1000BC with at most 6 undeveloped cities, while all others already have kickass economies (we not, anymore).
- switch to Colossus, because Legoland build the GL 2 turns before we could complete it. If we survive that long
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Give it up, Dominae. We're not talking reason here, we're just playing. If we win, great. If we lose, so what?
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Give what up? If you're referring to my comments about trying to find the best course of action, might I point out that you're doing the same thing:
quote:
In 50 turns we could be done with our REX, and at least 50% of our cities could already have a decent infrastructure and we could have an awesome research pace. Instead of this we:
- throw away a ready built settler factory
- totally neglect our defense
- start to build a new granary in another city and repeat the just completed work of 2000 years around EotS in another city.
- pray and hope that neither our ally nor other civs will attack us. If they do, we again throw away all we did for the wonder and prepare for defense
- assume (and even hope, in the threads), that our opponents are weak players
- are content to meet the year 1000BC with at most 6 undeveloped cities, while all others already have kickass economies (we not, anymore).
- switch to Colossus, because Legoland build the GL 2 turns before we could complete it. If we survive that long |
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zeit
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Meet my blade!
Sep 2002
time: 06:25
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Hmm.. now i am beging to feel sorry i was so hasty in making my vote "GL all the way".
It seems i havn't considered all the consequneces, as well as the alternatives, but still, i think its a viable option, if Vox contributes at least 2 workers for the effort, and we manage to sustain a degree of infrasture development (which probably means we don't do it in a "all the way" style, maybe adding just 2 or so workers of our own).
I wouldn't care to much for a certain slowdown of our expansion, as long as Vox is pacified, but can we gurantee that? consider this as well: can we delay our economical development in that critical time when we first meet (or they meet us) the foreign teams, and all this for those 3 techs, is it really worth it?
I mean, we have devised a plan that could achieve this, but havn't really answered the question of what is our actual gain? and is this the better (or best) way of advancing ourselves?
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29-01-2003 07:33
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