29-01-2003 00:53									#1
	GL revisited Support Apolyton

Okay, I decided to break this out of the Vox-comments thread, as it is too important to keep in such an obscure place And yes, I thought there were too few polls lately

The idea: If we can have some sort of a non-agression pact with Vox, and certainly if we can have a border pact that makes it possible for us to not focus on settlers all the time, it might be possible to get to the GL before anyone else can.

Last time I proposed this (first idea was to go for the pyramids), I was certain that we would be first to build it, as we would start on it before anyone else considered it. Now, things have changed a bit, so there are basically 2 options if we go for it: 1) is to try to get it, but without much focus, gambling on the fact that nobody has already started a prebuild. 2) is to assume we're behind, and go all the way, joining loads of workers (Nathan last proposal was 6 workers) to be certain that we will can outproduce any city so well that even if someone has started it, we will produce the GL first.

From the last test scenario (on pyramids), some numbers:
with 3 workers added, we complete the GL in less than 51 turns. With 6 workers, this will likely become less. I started the previous test at size 1, 0 food, while now, Hurricane has already 12 food in the box (as of last screenshot). At size 8, Hurricane produced 16 shields, 14 of those were uncorrupted (size 9: 17 shields, 15 uncorrupted). It took all available furs from EotS. my guess is that (contrary to what I said earlier) we can get it in 40 turns, if we are willing to give all the workers we can to Hurricane. That should build the GL in turn 80 or so, meaning around 1000 BC. I consider that date quite good, I can't remember I had an earlier GL in any of my games thus far, so I doubt that in a MP game anyone is going to beat it.

I hope this shows that if we decide to fully go for the GL, we will be able to do get it, even if someone else already started on it. The only gamble we take is that we have to trust Vox for 40 turns, and we have to hope nobody will create a leader in the mean time

In a normal prebuild, without adding workers, the chance gets a lot worse, as it will delay the GL with some 20 turns, maybe even more. In this case, we will lose the race to any civ with some cows next to it, if they start on it in 10 turns or so.

So, the repercussions of going all the way for the GL is that
- we need a border treaty with Vox, and trust them to keep it
- we need to delay growth: 6 workers means around 3 less cities (which we'll be able to offset fast with Cyclone as extra pump, otherwise the use of a granary in Cyclone is questionable)
- we need to get literature in 40 turns, most likely meaning we need to research literature right after writing
- we need to spend commerce on happyness, so what ever extra commerce we get from a pumped Hurricane will most likely go to happiness, and not to research.

But I dare to say to if we go for it, we will be able to get it too.

Discuss, and vote please

	29-01-2003 01:53									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I've voted GL all the way, but I think that joining 6 workers would be too much to sacrifice for the GL. I think we can do it with 3, since it's very very likely that no other civ will resort to such extreme measures as to join workers to their cities.

	29-01-2003 01:56									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Bah, the thing is that the difference between 3 and 6 workers isn't great from EotS's perspective (as it can produce workers each 2 turns, that's just a 6 turn delay there), but it will add to our production greatly.

But this can still be tested and changed, most importantly is to have everyone's opinion on the general idea... and I'm glad we share the same opinion here

DeepO

	29-01-2003 02:04									#4
	Increase Your PM Length

Tough call. Must ponder.

How much does this harm our expansion?

We're still awfully small. We have a number of cities to build. The all-out GL plan removes EotS from REX for a while, and removes Hurricane from anything but GL production until it's done.

-Arrian

	29-01-2003 02:12									#5
	Got spare money?

Question:

What if we were building the Colossus in Hurricane? How quickly could we pound that out?

It's smaller than the Library, we already have the tech, it takes care of one of our traits (Religious) for GA triggering, and it has a long life.

We could go for the Col, pumping 3 workers into Hurricane, and continue our REXing, with only a smallish delay. We have been talking about getting mapmaking for contact, so we may well research that, meaning we will have a backup if we miss the Col.

-Arrian

	29-01-2003 02:28									#6
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by DeepO Bah, the thing is that the difference between 3 and 6 workers isn't great from EotS's perspective (as it can produce workers each 2 turns, that's just a 6 turn delay there), but it will add to our production greatly.

I suppose you're right. I was just scared for a second by the idea of joining 6 workers so early in the game, but if I look at it as another smart investment, I guess I can swallow it down.
Anyway, you're right, the specific are all still up for discussion. What's important is that we should choose to dedicate ourselves to getting the GL, not just taking a wild chance with no assurances and "hoping" that we "might" get the GL, "maybe".

	29-01-2003 03:50									#7
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Coupled with a peace deal, for the time being, along a tech agreement, this could prove a wise investment. Although not having a barracks up and running soon does make feel abit unsafe, with Vox's inclination for instability...

	29-01-2003 04:04									#8
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Zeit, agree. But I suppose that if we need the GL, we will be a bit friendlier to Vox. Once we are certain that we will have the GL, we might even conisder asking advance payments from Vox, in the form of workers. They can help if they want to, their slaves are just as good as ours.

Here's something else to consider as a possible deal with Vox (not right now, and nothing can be said of this to Vox!): What if we kind of take loans from Vox, in the form of every worker they can give us before a certain date, will net them one tech once we begin to get techs from the GL. Some of the first techs won't be very valuable, but if they can give us 6 workers, we will give them the 6 first techs (meaning both of us on 100% gold for quite a while), and get on with our expanding unbothered.

Cool idea here, as it will also protect our relation with Vox: they need us happy, as won't give them their 'interest' if we're fighting a war.

DeepO

	29-01-2003 04:10									#9
	Remove this text

Arrian, we will lose 12 turns in EotS, and once we're building probably not the best shield allocation, meaning possibly another 3-4 turns delay. That's about 3 cities in 40 turns... not something light. The upside is that we create a good wondercity / producer, which can proof very helpful later on.

The Collosus would be another possibility, but I consider it more as a fallback possibility, if somehow we aren't able to get the GL. It will certainly help us, but over its lifetime, I think the GL is going to net us a lot more gold / science then the Collosus will. The impact will be greater to the rest of our game.

Zeit: barracks is a bit of a problem, but without sacrificing any defense, our warriors (outside our scouts) should be able to deal with all barbs. We just need to be sure that Vox is going to leave us alone for a while, we can easily become military vastly superiour later.

DeepO

	29-01-2003 04:38									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Where's the option "No GL, build settlers instead of extra workers"?

	29-01-2003 04:44									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Sir Ralph, that would be #1

DeepO

	29-01-2003 04:49									#12
	Support Apolyton

So I voted.

- We have no infrastructure
- We have no military
- We have a neighbor, who's friendly at the moment, but considered to be instable.
- We are in the REX phase and our neighbor is unhappy with the small amount of land we want to give him.
- We hamper our growth by building masses of workers in our capital, and redisign a city, which was dedicated to build units, to build a wonder?

Something is wrong here.

	29-01-2003 04:59									#13
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Well... it's the timing of the military that's the problem, not so much the amount or quality of it. We could produce something like 6 veteran troops in Hurricane if we have it on military instead of a wonder. Those same 6 troops will be built in a size 9 city in 12 turns (+ 3 more turns for a barracks). 3 less cities means again some fewer troops if we decide to make those barrack cities, but OTOH also gives us nothing to defend.

One of the reasons I like it is because we will be limited in growth anyhow, I doubt that Cyclone will come into its right as a settlerpump if we focus on EotS. How many settlers can be produced from it, 2-3 before the expansion ends anyway? Better to use it a few turns longer, meaning we won't miss the amount of workers needed to rush the wonder.

Besides, what about the idea to ask slaves from Vox, in return for a tech later on? we don't have to lose growth, and don't need to worry about them military anyway.

DeepO

	29-01-2003 05:10									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

If we go for the Great Library, here's an idea for a possible pact with Vox. This arrangement would give us the vast majority of the land on our home continent and a foothold on the other continent while providing Vox with security and a shot at a nice amount of land for themselves. It may still be a bit rough - I don't have time to refine it now - but it seems like an interesting possibility.

(By the way, I tend to view the issues of whether we go for the Great Library and what kind of relationship we build with Vox as essentially inseparable from each other. Vox needs to have a strong long-term sense of security for it to be safe for us to go for the Great Library.)

1) We define the original borders between GS and Vox as outlined in my latest proposal.
2) Gathering Storm engages in an all-out effort to build the Great Library as quickly as possible. It is understood that this will slow down our REXing, but that this slowdown will not affect the definition of borders.
3) When technology permits, Gathering Storm and Vox will engage in a joint military campaign against Lux Invicta. Until that time, Gathering Storm will share all technologies discovered through the Great Library with Vox, allowing Vox to save gold for warrior-to-immortal upgrades to build a more powerful invasion force. After each two of the first four cities Vox captures or razes from Lux (with appropriate adjustments based on the relative quality of city sites), Vox will give Gathering Storm one of the four cities farthest from its core as payment for the military advantage the extra gold for upgrades brings.
4) Gathering Storm may, in addition, trade up to two cities it captures from Vox on a one-for-one basis for the other two cities farthest from Vox’s core, again with appropriate adjustments should there be a significant difference in the quality of the city sites.
5) Vox will give Gathering Storm basing and transit rights in its territory in preparation for the invasion so that Gathering Storm can have multiple invasion waves already in place close to Lux’s territory when the invasion starts.
6) After operations against Lux are concluded successfully, any further partnership will be negotiated based on the conditions that exist at the time. However, in any event, there will be a game-long peace treaty between the two nations, and neither may enter into any other arrangement that would supercede that peace treaty.

	29-01-2003 05:10									#15
	Suffering from ads?

Ah, so we're building our first veteran troups in what, 60 turns?

	29-01-2003 05:20									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Ah, so we're building our first veteran troups in what, 60 turns?

No... first vets would come from Bolderberg. A barracks will take Bolderberg 16 turns given there is enough irrigation (a lot faster if the game can be used), after that 6 turns per spear / WC. So 23 turns from now, our first vets appear, as opposed to 12 turns from now.

DeepO

	29-01-2003 05:29									#17
	Got spare money?

As long as nobody considers to build the Colossus in Bolderberg, that's probably something I can so-so live with. If and only if Vox 100% agrees to Nathans offer, the GL coup seems doable, although I still see it as a gamble at high risk. IMHO, the odds that we really get the GL are not higher than, say, 25%. We probably will end with the Colossus and 200 wasted shields, or worse, with the Pyramids and a wasted GA.

	29-01-2003 05:39									#18
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hmmm... 25% seems awfully low... do you think others have started on the GL already for some time now, or they are planning to invest more workers then we are, supported by e.g. cows? We already use 2 shields per tile (almost everywhere), it's as fast as despotism permits.

I would think the chance of getting it without any workers something like 10%, with 2 worker added around 25% (best producing city, but still a bit behind of cities already started), and with 4 workers and more over 85%. It is a gamble, yes, but a pretty good one. I doubt anyone is willing to get so deep for the GL

DeepO

	29-01-2003 05:44									#19
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by DeepO No... first vets would come from Bolderberg. A barracks will take Bolderberg 16 turns given there is enough irrigation (a lot faster if the game can be used), after that 6 turns per spear / WC. So 23 turns from now, our first vets appear, as opposed to 12 turns from now.

Are you taking into account that when Bolderberg produces three or more shields, corruption eats one of them? Initially, Bolderberg will definitely be working the game tile (netting two shields per turn after waste), but we may want to shift things around at some point once Cyclone gets to a point where it makes sense to have it work the tile. Also, someday, when we can afford to put a worker on the job, I'll probably want to chop and irrigate that forest - at least if there's time for Cyclone to be of much use as a settler/worker pump.

	29-01-2003 05:44									#20
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I voted for 'units' (as in Settlers, like Sir Ralph).

Cyclone will not be as remotely a good a Settler pump as Eye currently is, at least for a long while.

How much pop can we get up to before unhappiness? Using the Luxury slider to keep our Wonder city happy is going to reduce our research rate.

We have no insurance against a betrayal from Vox. Blind trust in best in love, not in games. While we build the GL, they're amassing Immortals, which they then proceed to use to capture our beautiful Wonder. I imagine they'd consider this option more than the peaceful one.

We have no idea where LI is, what their lands look like, etc. Proposing a pact with Vox against LI is therefore unwise. As I mentioned in another thread, our joint efforts may not be that impressive. And what if LI gets another team to help them? Until we've gotten ourselves onto the world stage, I'm against any military proposal (except possibly against Vox, but even then it's not a good idea).

Without a Leader, we gain relatively little from the conquered Luxian cities. Why are we attacking LI anyway? Certainly not for profit. Is it just so that we can organize an activity with our fast friends the Voxians?


Dominae

	29-01-2003 05:48									#21
	Full PM-box? Change here!

In regard to competition for the Great Library, also keep in mind that we aren't the only ones who have to worry about how starting the Great Library early would create an opening for hostile action by neighbors. Actually, our isolated position and lack of contact with other civs may help us there. Unless we or Vox tell someone, only the two of us will know we're taking the gamble.

	29-01-2003 05:53									#22
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

The other nations are technologically ahead, have most likely already Writing and are close to Literature. And all know the importance of the GL. Although we have a good location, it is not great. With a cow and a couple of shielded grasslands you can make almost the same as we can in EotS, even more productionwise, because growth does not depend on floodplains. The idea of building a settler and worker factory is pretty common, so is the addition of workers to wonder cities. Don't underestimate the other teams, they have outstanding players there. Especially Neu Demogyptica. I don't see, why we technologically far backward and with a good, but not great location should have more than the mentioned 25%. I even do you a favor and increase it to 33%. But that doesn't change the facts.

	29-01-2003 05:53									#23
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Are you taking into account that when Bolderberg produces three or more shields, corruption eats one of them? Initially, Bolderberg will definitely be working the game tile (netting two shields per turn after waste), but we may want to shift things around at some point once Cyclone gets to a point where it makes sense to have it work the tile. Also, someday, when we can afford to put a worker on the job, I'll probably want to chop and irrigate that forest - at least if there's time for Cyclone to be of much use as a settler/worker pump.

I assumed no waste when Bolderberg was connected by road, something that we'll need for the horses anyway.

With waste, it gets to 20 turns for the barracks, and 10 turns per units, which is 31 (32?) turns from now to our first vet. Worse, of course... but given a peace treaty not a disaster.

DeepO

	29-01-2003 06:01									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Sir Ralph, there is only one team with a free settler / city other then ourselves (I think, can't remember where I got it from), and the most cities anyone has at this moment outside that civ and ourselves is 3, maybe just 4 (from the second city). Setting your third city to a prebuild I can surely understand (meaning they started a few turns ago), setting your second from the start is a very bold decision. We were considering it, but decided against it, even with our Christmas gift.

And yes, adding workers is common, and I believe other teams to have better players then Vox pretends to be, but 4 workers? In most likely a less isolated world? I doubt it. And I like the idea of 6 workers added... which other teams will think crazy to consider (I hope).

DeepO

	29-01-2003 06:02									#25
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

But again... what would you consider a decent time to build the GL in a SP game (on chieftain, if you wish)? Would you build it before 1000 BC?

DeepO

	29-01-2003 06:11									#26
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Dominae Without a Leader, we gain relatively little from the conquered Luxian cities. Why are we attacking LI anyway? Certainly not for profit. Is it just so that we can organize an activity with our fast friends the Voxians?

Unless we want to stick to our own land mass for the entire game, we'll have to invade the main continent sooner or later. Lux is a weak target that would give us a beachhead on that continent. Further, with troops prepositioned in Vox's territory, we could hit Lux with multiple waves quickly without a ridiculously high ratio of galleys to other units. And with the Great Library to pay for the operation, we could ferry large quantities of WCs over to our beachhead for upgrade to knights as soon as we get Chivalry. With decent luck, one of those knights will give us a leader, we can move our palace (after having already completed a FP somewhere in our original core), and we'll have a two-core empire going. In the meantime, even without a leader to build a palace on the other continent, we'd be getting four cities on our continent from Vox under my proposal - whatever land we might be giving up in the REXing race and then some.

If that doesn't sound like a good strategy, then my opening to try to set it up probably isn't a good move. What other strategies do people suggest?

	29-01-2003 06:19									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I'm not proposing any plans until I see the Luxian lands. Yes, we'll need to get off our continent eventually. That does not mean we have to start planning for that day now.


Dominae

	29-01-2003 06:27									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay If that doesn't sound like a good strategy, then my opening to try to set it up probably isn't a good move. What other strategies do people suggest?

Voxian slaves for GL techs to both let us grow better and consolidate our non-aggression with them, after which a war with Lux might be good, but isn't necessary.

My Civ3-intuition still thinks there is a lot of land to our East (over the dateline), just wanting to be settled... we might not even want a war with Lux (or a conquered Luxian city) at that point in time. It's too long-term for me, but I don't mind using the Voxian as shocktroops for a while. And if we can use whatever littel growth they have, it would be perfect.

What about : for every slave you can deliver to us in the next 15 turns, we will give you a tech later on? If we need to, we can sweeten the deal with one or two freebies, no harm done (they won't get to pikes because they gave so many slaves, as they simply can't afford that right now.)

DeepO

	29-01-2003 06:49									#29
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by DeepO What about : for every slave you can deliver to us in the next 15 turns, we will give you a tech later on? If we need to, we can sweeten the deal with one or two freebies, no harm done (they won't get to pikes because they gave so many slaves, as they simply can't afford that right now.)

I definitely like the idea of getting some of the workers to add to Hurricane from Vox. If they'd contribute two and we'd contribute four, that would keep the effect on our respective REXing a lot more equal.

But I'd like to see a deal where they stand to benefit from the Library in exchange for other forms of payment as well - either giving us cities if the situation is leveraged for one or both of us to attack Lux or giving us gold otherwise. Their benefit needs to be more than just two or three techs for two or three workers if we want to maintain a good working relationship.

But we could design things in terms of multiple options for how we leverage the Library for the benefit of both civs (us more than them since we're paying more of its cost), with the two of us deciding together which option looks best (and presumably with some kind of default for what happens if we don't both agree on something different).

	29-01-2003 07:16									#30
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Just to elaborate further, the one thing we know about Vox with absolute certainty is that when they're scared, they're unstable. If we build the Great Library, they no longer have us as a tech trading partner. Without some other provision for their expecting to stay in the tech race after we complete the project, I can almost guarantee that they'll be scared.

Nathan