31-01-2003 02:47									#91
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

We'd need to figure out what we're willing to offer Vox in return (and how "stupid" Vox would be depends on how good a deal we're willing to offer). I won't have time to do such a deal justice until the weekend, and with DeepO currently inclined to hold off starting the project for another settler (if I understand correctly), there's not a huge amount of urgency. (Holding it off for another settler makes good sense from an EotS shield usage perspective, since we'd waste shields building workers now, but if I've calculated correctly, we'd get a settler at 31 shields and then end up a good size for 2-turn workers.)

	31-01-2003 03:08									#92
	Tired of ads?

Good, I like that idea: we build another settler (gold hill, baby!) and that gives us time to make sure we want to do this thing, and if so, to work something out with Vox.

I agree, Nathan, that "stupidity" depends on what they get out of the deal.

-Arrian

	31-01-2003 03:12									#93
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Arrian I agree, Nathan, that "stupidity" depends on what they get out of the deal.

Just to take that a step farther, how much they get out of the deal would also determine how stupid it would be for them to spoil the deal by attacking us. Political stability can be at least as important to avoiding wars as military deterrence.

	31-01-2003 04:08									#94
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Is there anyone who's still gung ho about the idea of building workers to add to Hurricane for a Great Library bid before we build at least one more settler? If not, there's no need to rush with an official poll.

	31-01-2003 05:36									#95
	Got spare money?

I think we should do this poll all over again.


Dominae

	31-01-2003 06:07									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae I think we should do this poll all over again.

I think the question is more one of when to do another, official poll than of if. Unless we want to switch EotS over to workers before building another settler, we have at least five turns before the next major decision point. Having EotS produce at least one worker after the settler it's working on makes sense no matter what, so the real limiting factor is that if we focus on units, five turns after the barracks, Hurricane would build a spearman (and hence be set back 1/20 of the cost of the Great Library if we decide to go for it). That gives time for a bit more discussion before the repoll.

	31-01-2003 16:55									#97
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Well, I think the settler first in EotS is best, to settle the gold. It will in the near future provide another barracks city.

As to what to build in Hurricane: I certainly would go for the GL immediately, not after another spear. So a decision needs to be made in 5 turns time... this should be alright.

Dominae,
I was certainly not planning on waiting to build the GL until after republic, there is no way we could have a shot at it then. By the time we could reach the republic, we can have the GL too, so certainly is it worth it to get these from the GL, certainly as it is a high-priced tech.

DeepO

	31-01-2003 20:27									#98
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

If we knew with 100% certainty that we'd win the race for the Great Library, holding up Republic would make a lot of sense. But we'd paint ourselves into a corner if we aren't hard at work toward Republic and Sir Ralph's fear of missing the Great Library comes to pass.

	31-01-2003 20:49									#99
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

true, but in some way, we need to get to literature in 40 turns. And if we beeline for the republic, there is no way we can do research literature ourselves...

I was thinking in getting RPG in the deal: if either of us researches MM and gets to the other, we could trade literature from them. They will try to build the GL, so literature is high on their list... maybe they can trade it with us.

DeepO

[edit: corrected yet another name-swap... I'm terribly bad in this kind of thing ]

	01-02-2003 06:55									#100
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

If we're going for the GL (seems that people are leaning that way), then we need to research lit ourselves. That's not something I'm willing to leave to trading.

Plus, though it's an investment, building a library in EotS after we get 1-2 more settlers out could boost our research. That's something to discuss once we're getting close to discovering lit, though.

-Arrian

	01-02-2003 09:21									#101
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I thought about building the Great Library in EotS, but paradoxically, Hurricane is in a much better position to do it quickly. Once EotS would reach size 7, the fastest it could possibly grow is four turns (six turns to go from 7 to 8), and then only by working three flood plains tiles that give only food and no production. But cranking out workers to add to another city, EotS avoids the penalty to its own growth rate that comes with a larger size, and the other city (Hurricane) can work tiles that bring its own growth to a complete halt in favor of higher production. So not only do we get EotS back as a settler pump in about a dozen turns, but we get a higher-production Great Library city.

	01-02-2003 11:16									#102
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I just came up with an idea that I posted in the turn thread that could help our defenses just a little going for the Great Library. The catch is, it requires a different move on our upcoming turn!

	01-02-2003 11:28									#103
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I just had a thought regarding competition for the Great Library. As I've discovered in my own thoughts and analysis regarding the idea, adding workers to boost production isn't quite as easy as it appears at first glance. Not only do you have to build the workers to add, but either they or other workers have to improve tiles in order to get full advantage out of the added workers. That slows us down a bit, but it could be even more awkward for civs that can't produce workers as quickly as EotS can.

Nathan

	01-02-2003 11:49									#104
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I had a professor in Scotland (Univ St. Andrews) who had a saying: The Romans were thorough!

Nathan is thorough!

Btw, check your PMs again. I'm off to bed.

-Arrian

	01-02-2003 15:02									#105
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by DeepO Well, I think the settler first in EotS is best, to settle the gold. It will in the near future provide another barracks city.

If we want a barracks city, #4 would be a better site. The gold hill site would require working mined hills to offset flood plains, and under Despotism, that would destroy its growth advantage, consume more worker turns building improvements, and ultimately not provide as good a production as #4 could get.

I'm still inclined to favor the gold hill site, though, at least assuming we have everything squared away with Vox. It would produce a lot more wealth (not entirely useless for defense), and it should be able to crank out workers every five turns at size 3 once the proper tile improvements are in place. Those extra workers, in turn, would leave EotS and later Cyclone able to focus a bit more on building settlers.

Nathan

	01-02-2003 15:58									#106
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

hmmm... you're right, the goldcity won't be the best barracks city. And it would certainly work as a worker factory of sorts...

I like the extra commerce, but if we need more defense, it may be better to settle another city first. At least there is some kind of plan to get more production going

DeepO

	01-02-2003 16:34									#107
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Another reason in favor of settling the gold city: it will bring us closer to settling the incense desert and claiming incense, which we'll need in order for Hurricane to grow up to size 8 without having to use entertainers (currently it can support 6 citizens without entertainers).

	01-02-2003 16:45									#108
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Racing for a wonder, it would make more sense to use the luxury slider rather than entertainers. 10% on the luxury slider will eventually add two to the population Hurricane can support, and only EotS and the gold hill city would even feel that below size five or six.

	01-02-2003 17:03									#109
	Support Apolyton

Of course, but we'd want to avoid using either options altogether.

	01-02-2003 17:37									#110
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Shiber Of course, but we'd want to avoid using either options altogether.

That depends on how much we give up if we delay a city in a better location in order to build (and road to) the incense city sooner. (And once we hit size 9, nothing we can do will save us from needing the luxury slider.)

	02-02-2003 05:08									#111
	Tired of ads?

I am convinced... let's go for the GL. No distractions though. Let's get Hurricane on it right away. Other towns can build up our military. Given peace with Vox, we are only at risk of Galley invasions, which, while run by humans as opposed to the AI, are not yet worrisome.