29-01-2003 09:32									#61
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teh best points were near the beginning

we know that he had this stuff

and he has not shown that he has destroyed it

Jon Miller

	29-01-2003 09:33									#62
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It did it for me. I thought he laid it out articulately and honestly. Richard Holbrooke is the FORMER UN Ambassdor from the US (and a Demoncrat, obviously) verified what Bush said.

	29-01-2003 09:33									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko Thougth that was the weakest part of the speech, especially the endless repetition bit.

Is that why it hypnotized your poor little brain?

	29-01-2003 09:37									#64
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quote: Thougth that was the weakest part of the speech, especially the endless repetition bit.

The repetition was powerful and chilling.

And as I said, the facts were backed by Holbrooke, and one thing else: no matter how much I disagree with Bush's foriegn policy, I always have believed him to a truthful man even in political speeches.

	29-01-2003 09:45									#65
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I thought the speech was an unstructured mess. Lots of nice rhetoric florishes that went nowhere.

--But did you see the look in his eyes near the end? You can tell that be believes he's been selected by God to rid the world of Saddam Hussein. We're going to war whether we want to or not.

	29-01-2003 10:15									#66
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I listened to the speech on the way home. Bush seemed very subdued. Only when he got to Iraq did he become forceful.

The problem he has with the speech is the contrast between the tough talk on Saddam with the mild response to North Korea.

On Iraq, there is little we did not know already. What I did not know was that the WoMD documents are scattered to the private homes of thousands of workers. Also I did not know that Iraqi security officers were posing as scientists.

The Security Council meeting of Feb. 5 should be interesting. I wonder what France, Russia and China will do faced with evidence of Iraqi defiance? Deny it exists? Say that inspections can continue in this mode - without true Iraqi cooperation? It will be interesting.

	29-01-2003 10:21									#67
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the reason why we must act against Iraq is because otherwise they will become like NK, demanding from the rest of the world to satisfy all their little wants

Jon Miller

	29-01-2003 11:13									#68
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Compare the reverential tone of most Americans to the State of the Union address to this account of Prime Minister Howard's visit to the Canberra bushfire victims.

quote: Day of Terror in the Suburbs of Canberra by Richard from Weston My day of terror began on Sunday morning when I tuned into a local radio station. The previous day I had been busy inhaling ash, hosing houses, watching flames come towards me from three different directions etc etc etc. But by 10pm Saturday night the fires had moved on and it seemed that everything had worked out well for my street. When I woke up on Sunday morning we still had no electricity, but the cooler weather and lack of wind gave plenty of reason for optimism. So nothing could have prepared me for that sickening moment when I turned on the radio and heard that Prime Minister John Howard was rampaging unchecked and unstoppably through the suburbs of Weston Creek, engulfing the bodies of hapless residents in hugs and stifling their senses with grating small talk. At first he seemed to be safely contained within Duffy, two whole suburbs to the west, and at that point it still seemed unlikely that he would get anywhere near Weston. But in the unprecedented conditions we were facing, he moved quickly and unpredictably. Suddenly, without warning, his appearancesflared up in Waramanga, barely a kilometre to the south. It was obvious that even my own seemingly safe street could soon be in danger. I wished I had time to do some preemptive backburning to block off his progress, but there was no time. Instead I just stood nervously on my front lawn armed with a hose and a rake - ready to fight him off and protect my home and loved ones even if it took my final breath to do so. But my luck was still in. Whether it was due to a change in the wind, or whether firefighters intervened, I don't know. But his course changed and he left my part of Weston mercifully untouched. By mid Sunday afternoon I was finally able to feel confident the crisis was over. I could go back inside and relax, knowing that I could probably live the rest of my life without ever seeing him come anywhere near my neighbourhood again.

We don't take our leaders so seriously.

	29-01-2003 16:28									#69
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quote: Originally posted by orange bingo, and the made up 'facts'

What reason do you have to think they are made up? Shouldn't you at least wait until after Powell prevents our evidence soon so you don't end up looking like a fool?

	29-01-2003 17:00									#70
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What I saw of Bush's speech, he looked like a man who was reading an auto cue - unconvincingly.

The faces of the audience looked unconvinced too, like Americans are kind of confused and don't know if they are going the right way or not, kind of rattled, maybe spooked by the international opposition to the Administration's direction.

	29-01-2003 19:56									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse What I saw of Bush's speech, he looked like a man who was reading an auto cue - unconvincingly. The faces of the audience looked unconvinced too, like Americans are kind of confused and don't know if they are going the right way or not, kind of rattled, maybe spooked by the international opposition to the Administration's direction.

depends who you saw in the audience. ABC (American Broadcasting Corp) kept showing Sen. John Kerry during the IRaq part of the speech. Now HE certainly looked rattled, not knowing if he is going the right way or not. Which makes sense , since he has been a fence straddler on Iraq, and is position is getting increasingly complicated. Sen. Joe Leiberman did not look rattled at all, nor did Sen, John McCain.

	29-01-2003 20:02									#72
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quote: Originally posted by chairmanmeow What surprised me was that Hillary Clinton gave him a standing ovation. Who knows, maybe the Senate is planning to make Bush go the way of Caesar...

Hillary was seated next to Sen. Leiberman of Conn. An interesting pairing. Sen. Clinton needs to improve her foreign pol credibility with her pro-Israel constituents, and Joe needs to improve his standing with liberals.

Tehy were both strong applauders on the foreign policy stuff IIRC. (not like Sen. Kennedy, sitting there glumly)

	29-01-2003 20:16									#73
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He keeps talking about how unfair it is for millionaires to have their dividends "taxed twice", but, using the same logic retires have their social security incomes taxed three times! Pensioners certainly need the money much more the millionaires and they're being taxed 50% more times then Bush's prescious millionaires.

	29-01-2003 20:18									#74
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quote: the same logic retires have their social security incomes taxed three times

How?

	29-01-2003 20:21									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Pensioners certainly need the money much more the millionaires

I wonder if you realize how much stock is held by retirement plans.

	29-01-2003 22:11									#76
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I don't know how the US taxation system works but I don't see how there is double taxation. Can someone explain how the tax system works such that a taxed dividend gives less money than a taxed employee's income.

In the UK there is no net difference in being paid a dividend or being paid a salary for those in the higher income (+$50,000) brackets.

Edit - I'll start a seperate thread on it.

	29-01-2003 22:13									#77
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I listened to the speech on the way home. Bush seemed very subdued. Only when he got to Iraq did he become forceful.


That was forceful? I only saw the last 10 minutes and it was tough to listen to. He had no emotion in his voice and no expression in his face. Although he did smirk twice.

It could have been a better speech if given by somebody who knows how. How am I supposed to believe him if it sounds like he doesn't even believe himself.

Maybe I have been spoiled from watching President Bartlett give speeches

	29-01-2003 22:23									#78
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I wonder if you realize how much stock is held by retirement plans.

yeah but to the extent its in tax exempt retirement plans (pension plans, 401 ks, etc) the beneificiaries dont save one cent from Bush's plan since it exempts dividend income from personal taxation(which isnt paid on a 401k anyway), but it keeps being taxed at the corporate level. Now if he had left personal taxation of dividends, but allowed corporations to deduct dividends that would have been different.

Why didnt he do that
1. Giving a break to individuals sounds more "populist" than giving one to corporations
2. Giving the break to individuals concentrates the savings on the folks in the highest brackets, and gives nothing to the 401k's, pensions, etc.

	29-01-2003 22:51									#79
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The whole speech was normal Republican crap... the only part that I found interesting was the part about fuel cell technology. In the markets so far today, a lot of fuel cell companies are seeing 10-15 percent gains.

Acts of Hypocrisy in speech:
1. Getting medicine to Africa.... Bush failed to mention how the Republicans killed the generic drug plan which would have provided many more millions with the AIDS drugs they need at significantly less cost.

2. Spurring the economy.... the obvious is the whole tax cut for the rich, but I noticed that Bush said overall, he's going to increase spending by 400 billion while giving a 670 billion tax cut. That's nice, so in the next year the national budget deficit will increase about 3 billion dollars a day on top of the already monumental deficit we already have. Deficit spending on this scale hurts the economy, it doesn't help it. IIRC, the government is paying 50 billion a year in just interest on the deficit.

3. Helping the environment.... sure relaxing laws against pollution, mining, and logging is a good way to show that you're a conservationist. And Bush's history as governor and as president has shown that the so called 70% reduction in pollution output is a complete lie.

The whole clapping and standing ovation thing was really terrible. Every sentence the whole Republican Congress stood up. It's bad enough the Republican agenda as a whole is immoral, it's also detrimental to the American economy as well as the rest of the world's opinion of us; and I'm not even talking about Iraq...but on top of that, those puds stand up and clap at their idiotic policies.

Bush is a barfbag, I'm only happy that there wasn't a terrorist attack in Washington. Armageddon would truly be upon us if Ashcroft (the absent cabinet member in case of disaster) was president.

Last edited by Sava on 29-01-2003 at 22:56

	01-02-2003 03:48									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Bush is a barfbag, I'm only happy that there wasn't a terrorist attack in Washington. Armageddon would truly be upon us if Ashcroft (the absent cabinet member in case of disaster) was president.

The only thing worse than that would be if Bush, Cheney, and Dennis Hastert had for some reason been killed in 2001. In that case, Strom Thurmond, at that time the President Pro Tempore of the Senate, would have become president. That would be hell...