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Luk
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Wroclaw, Lower Silesia, Poland
Mar 1999
time: 06:25
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Even in Middle ages, which are called the dark ages only from White perspective, we had better civilization, and better culture then Arab, and Chinese. Of course Arab were undestroyed, they have no wars etc. Chinese too, but, this civilization was not vital. They stuck as always in their 4 walls and did nothing to expanse. It is the fact that in early ages of Middle ages Arabs had a chance to conquer Europe... But they didn't. Europeans would never do this, we would conquer it Im sure. We conquer because we are created to conquer. But Im sure, that even Arabs could not after military conquest assimilate Europeans, because even then their unindividualism, anachronism etc. would be not to accept by Whitemen. It would not last long.
But as I said Arabs did not conquer us. It is an example what are the difference between us, and rest of world. And as I said... Only in Europe there was always a modernization, a neverending disscusion, many new forms of organization, goverments etc. All other civs are stick with one system of live, stick with the same values etc.
We ripped from Chinese, and Arab civ few technologies that is all. The technologies which were not fully understanded by Chinese, and Arabs. In fact we truly developed this technologies, Chinese, and Arabs only discovered it Bur the ideological ferment, the art, the beauty, the political ideologies, forms of goverment etc. etc. this abstracts, many kind of religions, belifs etc. this is the example of our greatness. And it is neverending, and this always be a symbol of our civilization. For over 2000 years.
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Luk
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Wroclaw, Lower Silesia, Poland
Mar 1999
time: 06:25
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First... I think that China is nothing like 1.3 billions of peasants, and city-citizens affected by European Civilization. I do not recognize China as a great civ in their history. They had their times of greatness, but it was a greatness for themsselves, not for the world. Persia, and China are too weak civs to speak about it. The real game in the future will be the rivalisation of EU-and USA. Of course China will be artificial danger of both Europe was ignored because China did not know what is Europe. When they start to know they were conquered, then they had a small period of independence, maosim, etc. and now they are coming to the normal status, of European colony. The part of geopolitical struture of todays white world.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:25
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quote:
Even in Middle ages, which are called the dark ages only from White perspective, we had better civilization, and better culture then Arab, and Chinese.
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Luz
No. Chinese had astronomers who could predict eclipses. Europe had nothing of this sort of scientific discourse. Same with the Islamic countries, particularly Cordoba in Spain.
In fact in 1642, Europe was very lucky not to fall to the Moslems who invaded Vienna.
We were also very lucky when the Mongol Khan died before crushing Budapest. This forced the leader of the Mongol forces to retreat to claim his right to the Mongol throne. I seriously doubt Europe could have defeated such a force, look at how long Russia was a Mongol vassal?
Why did the West rise is a good question. One answer is to point to the black death where the three main cultures, the West, the Moslems and the Chinese were hit hard. All three were about equivalent in terms of population but only the West continued to progress.
One explanation to explain the West's rise is that the entire societal structure overturned due to a shortage of cheap labour. It becomes very hard to enforce a feudal system without the necessary peasents on the bottom holding the entire structure out. You knock out the props, you force wholescale changes, particularly the consolidation of the state.
China became very insular after the bubonic plague, assuming the 'barbarians'of the west spread the plague. This allowed a much larger navy to decay, wood ships and all, as China closed upon itself.
As for the Moslems, why they did not fare well is a more difficult question. Maybe some thoughts from the others?
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Luk
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Wroclaw, Lower Silesia, Poland
Mar 1999
time: 06:25
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Read posts above - those science is nothing without organization, culture, ideas, etc. This science was discovered first by Chinese, but really developed by Europeans.
First - not in 1642, but in 1683, and Polish king Sobieski defeated then Turks But even Turks would win in Vienna it would change nothing, because Turkey then was the sick people of Europe, and they would stop there, and back, because they had a silent agreement with France which wanted to destroy Austria. If Turkey would attack in Europe heart it would be easly beaten.
Batu-Khan, not Mongol-Khan, and Mongols did not have a chance to conquer Europe. In that times, Hungary still was not a real European country, it was still the half-barbaric, without Latin culture penetration. Mongols had no ambition to conquer Europe. Even they did not think about it
And Russia is an accident. It is one of the greatest misunderstadning in history. I do not belive until toady how this puny nation become so important. How, we Poles let to do it. It is pathetic... I admit.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:25
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http://www.iyp.org/polish/history/vienna.html
Regarding battle
I was wrong, date was Sept. 12, 1683.
However: some excerpts.
In the winter of 1682-3, Poland and Austria came to an agreement providing for joint action against a Turkish invasion and promising relief in case of a direct attack on Vienna or Cracow. The threat of Turkish attack could not have been more real. A Turkish army of over 140,000 men started marching north in March of 1683, and arrived before the walls of Vienna on July 14, 1683.
Sobieski, who already had a considerable reputation against the Turks, assumed command. His plan was to force battle on the plain west of the city and annihilate the Turkish army, thus breaking the siege. The Turkish commander Kara Mustapha continued to focus much of his effort at capturing the city, therefore at the start of the battle only part of his army was prepared to meet the relief force.
At five p.m. Sobieski ordered the charge. One German-Austrian and three Polish cavalry groups, 20,000 men charged down hill, echelon after echelon, lead by King Jan Sobieski, straight for the center of the Turkish camp. As the cavalry burst into the Turkish lines, the garrison in the city attacked the Turkish rear.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:25
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http://historymedren.about.com/libr...golinvasion.htm
This time the Mongol Invasion of Europe.
Much better case than the Turkish invasion as to how lucky we were.
again, some excerpts
Date is 1241.
On the very day that Henry and so many of his men had fallen, King Béla IV left Pest with an army of some 60,000-70,000 fighting men to confront the larger Mongol force. The Hungarians advanced on the Mongols, who retreated slowly until they reached the plain of Mohi, near the Sajó River. The Mongols then pulled back, past woods beyond the opposite bank, and disappeared. Béla camped on the plain of Mohi and drew his wagons around into a laager for protection.
With the aid of catapults, the Mongols occupied the only bridge over the Sajó. On April 10, however, the Hungarians charged the bridge, and the lightly armored Mongols, having little room to maneuver, took a beating. Again improvising a fortified camp on the west side of the river by lashing wagons together, Béla pushed on and established a strong bridgehead on the east side as well.
Even while the Mongols were being driven from the bridge, however, Subotai had found a fording point to the south. Just before dawn on April 11, he led 30,000 of his horsemen across. Batu then swept to the Hungarians' left flank, causing them to turn, while Subotai's men hurried northward to strike at the Hungarian rear. By 7 a.m., the Europeans, completely outmaneuvered, were falling back and took refuge in their camp. For the next several hours, the Mongols assailed Béla's camp once more with catapults, throwing stones, burning tar, naphtha and even Chinese firecrackers, whose noise and fiery flashes, hitherto unknown to the Europeans, took their toll on morale.
Then another strange thing occurred. The Hungarians discovered that the Mongol army that now surrounded the camp had left a conspicuous gap to the west. Cautiously, a few of the Hungarians tried to escape through the gap and passed through without difficulty. Others followed and soon the flight became uncontrollable. As the Hungarians retreated, however, they became strung out--at which point the Mongols reappeared in force, riding along their flanks and showering them with arrows. The Hungarian retreat degenerated into a panicky, disorderly rout--just as Subotai had calculated it would when he deliberately left them that tantalizing but deceptive escape route. Now, moving in for the kill, the Mongols rode the Hungarians down and killed them with lance and saber. Depending on the source, anywhere from 40,000 to 65
.............................................
The truth was that Kaidu and Baidar had no intention of venturing deeper into Europe--that had never been their objective. They had, in fact, carried out their assigned task brilliantly. With just two toumans totaling 20,000 horsemen, they had destroyed Boleslav's and Henry's armies and forced Wenceslas to withdraw his Bohemian host, thereby completely eliminating the northern threat to Batu and Subotai's army. Mission accomplished, they turned south to join the main force in Hungary, laying the Moravian countryside to waste in the process.
As it developed, the Mongols did not remain long in Hungary, either. On December 11, 1241, Ogadei died in Asia. Upon learning of the great khan's death, Subotai reminded the three princes in his army of the law of succession as laid down by Genghis Khan: "After the death of the ruler all offspring of the house of Genghis Khan, wherever they might be, must return to Mongolia to take part in the election of the new khakan." Recalling all their forces, the Mongols started back to their Mongolian capital of Karakorum, postponing their invasion of central Europe for another time--a time that would never come.
Terrible as the debacle at Liegnitz was, it had ultimately been pointless--a Mongol effort to support a conquest that was suddenly abandoned, leaving nothing but a wide swath of destruction and death as the Mongol legacy in eastern and central Europe.
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Luk
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Wroclaw, Lower Silesia, Poland
Mar 1999
time: 06:25
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Ming finally ended the disscusion, and showed depth of your arguments - the cenzorship. This argument is undefeated. I remember times when this argument was very common in my country. Times not change. But I agree with Ming... Todays open rascizm is against white supremacy, because todays the ruling ideology of White Supremacy is equality. I did try to show you some facts, but you are resisnat on knowledge. But in real life, on the real public the racial supremacy theory is in practic today the danger to racial supremacy.
OK. it is my last word in this thema. You ended this disscusion by moderator will.
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