01-02-2003 03:01									#1
	RESOLUTION: Settling at the potato site? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I'm convinced that the tile s-e of our capital, just below the potato on the river is the ideal settling site. It will provide us with growth and we desperately need to grow now.

Other options would be north of the coal, also on the river, or somewhere north of the hills where Dave stands now. While I think the hills are just too far away the decision between potato and coal site is one growth vs. production.
The tile we would settle on is the same both times, it would give us 20 Food, 5 Production and 10 Gold points. So the other 8 tiles are important. From them we get city size/6 * the full amount of all 8 tiles. So in the beginning we would get the tile we're on plus 1/6 of the radius. (If you don't know how the system works -> FAQ)

8 tiles around south of the potato:
Total 110 Food, 55 Production, 50 Gold

8 tiles around north of the coal:
Total 45 Food, 105 Production, 50 Gold

So it's pretty clear - with the potato site we will grow twice as fast, while with the coal site we will produce twice as fast.

I'm convinced that we need growth first and that the coal site should be the location of our third city - that's why I'm proposing the following resolution:

The newly built settler is to settle on the river tile south of the potato.

Voting ends February 3rd, 2205 GMT.

	01-02-2003 03:13									#2
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Screenshot?

	01-02-2003 03:25									#3
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Sorry - look into the debating thread about this:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...?threadid=75403

	01-02-2003 04:06									#4
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dont we need an exact location?

	01-02-2003 05:57									#5
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the potato site is to near to our existing cities (overlapping as soon either of them reaches a range of 3). in addition, that area should be explored better before placing a city.


in contrast the coal site's borders would perfectly fit in with our current ones. that site is still fast accessible from goodland via the river. it wields enourmous production for units and/or wonders, even more once we start digging mines. and that site can be turned into better food with a few pw later in the game (hacking down the 2 forest tiles e.g.) while there is no way to turn the potatoe site into a good production place before we can terraform hills.

so it goes to a clear: NO

	01-02-2003 05:59									#6
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I concur with Zappy.

N.O.

	01-02-2003 06:22									#7
	Tired of ads?

Growth is more important.

	01-02-2003 06:33									#8
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I vote for growth



(I.E. vote YES)

Last edited by MrBaggins on 01-02-2003 at 07:01

	01-02-2003 14:13									#9
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You bet!!!!! I settled on a potato site.... (Ummm, inside joke with myself I guess. I live in Idaho... It's famous for it's potatos )

	01-02-2003 23:44									#10
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I think we need a unit production base, so 105 production vs 55 production means that we need at the coal spot only approximatly half the time for a new unit like at the potato spot. Therefore the answer is NO.

-Martin

	01-02-2003 23:49									#11
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Its not that simple, Martin... we work 3 squares... and 4 squares and so on and so forth... quicker... with the potato site... firstly cos the site gets settled earlier... secondly because the growth of the city is just plain quicker.

We will not only be increasing production... but commerce and hence science too... vital for further developments.

The potato site can and will overtake the coal site, in the short term. A vote for the potato is a vote for progress.

MrBaggins

	02-02-2003 01:00									#12
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins firstly cos the site gets settled earlier... MrBaggins

yes, in 5 turns instead of 7, thats a real lousy argument

	02-02-2003 01:11									#13
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins Its not that simple, Martin... we work 3 squares... and 4 squares and so on and so forth...

I don't know what you mean with squares.

quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins firstly cos the site gets settled earlier...

As Zaphod Beeblebrox only two turns aren't a real argument.

quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins We will not only be increasing production... but commerce and hence science too... vital for further developments.

Also the city on the coal site will grow and increase its production and grows and commerce. To increase its grows speed we could use farmers. Then we have also there a big city faster, too. And of course a more productive one as at the potato site, unless we would put around the potato city a lot of mines, but this will take a while, in the mean time we could have built a lot of units in the coal city.

So a vote against the potato city is a vote for units. And we need units for our defence and for our empire expansion.

-Martin

	02-02-2003 01:16									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Martin Gühmann I don't know what you mean with squares.

He means because the city will grow faster near the potato, we'll work more tiles faster as we grow, so growth is the ultimate goal, rather than short term production.

And whats the thoughts on placing a farm there to settle on? Or is that cheating now?

	02-02-2003 01:31									#15
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size 1 = 1/6 * 8 = 8/6ths + center
size 2 = 2/6 * 8 = 16/6ths + center
size 3 = 3/6 * 8 = 24/6ths + center


At size 1, we work the equivilent of 2 1/3 'civ squares' including the center
At size 2, we work the equivalent of 3 2/3 'civ squares' including the center
At size 3, we work the equivalent of 5 'civ square' including the center

Growth is remarkably profitable.

We *could* use a farmer specialists to make up for the lacking growth of the 'coal' site, but that will mean... much less science... much less gold. We could do the same tactic with the potato site, and grow EVEN QUICKER.

Plus... if we want to build more settlers, we don't want a site with slow growth.

	02-02-2003 01:48									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora He means because the city will grow faster near the potato, we'll work more tiles faster as we grow, so growth is the ultimate goal, rather than short term production.

OK I got it now. Butsettling at the coal site does not mean only short term production but also as the city grows and we have the PW to improve its surroundings with mines long term produnction and not to less.

quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora And whats the thoughts on placing a farm there to settle on? Or is that cheating now?

I think this is cheating caused by a bug, but fortunatly it can be fixed by using slic :

code:

 HandleEvent(CreateCity)'MG_RemoveTileImprovementFr
omSettleLocation'pre{
    if(CellOwner(army[0].location)>-1)
        for(i = 0; i < 40; i = i+1){
            if(TileHasImprovement(army[0].location, i)){
                j = j+1;
            }
        }
        if(j>0){
            CutImprovements(army[0].location);
        }
    }
}

Probably it can be done in a more elegant way and maybe the tile can be still pillaged afterwards the city is build then it is a lot better.

So we CTP2 is a wonderfull game you can fix a lot of stuff without begging for it at the manufacturer.

-Martin

	02-02-2003 02:55									#17
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The calculations mentioned here... are forgeting a few things... most importantly the 30% crime rate, and the other government factors

I did a few calculations and my numbers might be off by a few percent... and I might be forgetting some factors... cos the rounding is weird... but I figured after 17 turns... (and including the coal delay)

heres how the 2 sites will differ

Spud production 913 (-15%)
Spud Gold 172 (+12%)
Spud Science 226 (+27%)

Coal production 1050 (+15%)
Coal Gold 153 (-12%)
Coal Science 178 (-27%)

The Spud site grows a
bout 2 turns quicker at any given (relatively low) size , than the Coal site.

The Coal sites production advantage is less than 10 units a turn. Science is significantly better at Spudsville.

GoodLand will produce warriors @ about 4 turns when its size 2, due to building the settler.

MrBaggins

Last edited by MrBaggins on 02-02-2003 at 21:05

	02-02-2003 03:09									#18
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Its a scary throught, but it'll be 24+ turns(?) before we get Archers... even if we settle Spudsville...

so... bunker down and pump warriors out of GoodLand... obviously... right?

	02-02-2003 05:10									#19
	Tired of ads?

Personally, I feel that even the extra production that we would have had on the other site, we will somewhat suplement that with extra workers on this site, so I vote yes. I have been watching the debate and had planned to set up a poll based on the two projected sites, but I had to work the last two days and wasn't on long enough to do so.

Glad you guys took to the task to discuss the issue in my absence

	03-02-2003 05:34									#20
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well, this poll has become obsolete, since it lags behind gameplay and should be closed. at the moment i write this, it 12/4/0

	04-02-2003 00:57									#21
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we will be better off fueling pop growth early on. We can alter prod levels later, but there is no substitute for quick early growth. I vote yes

	04-02-2003 14:58									#22
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you are free to vote any way you want, but its useless. that potato site is already the home of our glorious city kartoffelpuffer. we should more care about which place our next settler (at the moment being built in pedrunn) will found our third ciry. the hottest spot will be at the coalsite, though there is still a discussion whether to settle directly on the coal (even better production, even worse growth, huge defence bonus, can be an argument that close to a border as well) or on the riversidegrassland one field to the north.

	04-02-2003 22:05									#23
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This resolution has passed - nr. 002 - it has been followed already before voting was over.