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pg
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iirc there was a story similar to this that happened at a big cpl lan. i don't remember it all but i think it basically went like this - supposedly people thought a player who was quite good was a cheater due to online rumors and when he showed up at the lan they decided to get back at him. the accused cheater left his computer unattened over the course of the lan to later come back and find it totally trashed. i don't even think there was any hard proof against him. even if he was a cheater it's just a ****ing game! cpl lans are full of stories like this lately, theft seems like it happens a lot if not random destruction like this.
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pg
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i'll tell you from experience that there are more cheaters than you expect but the majority of accused cheaters on the internet are not really cheaters. most people who cheat aren't great players, and usually only the really great players have accusations of cheating stick. a great player is a guy who never seems to die, get 3x the frags of everyone else, and do jaw dropping things at ease. a great player with insane mad skills can out pretty much outplay any cheater. next time you are at a big lan you can test it yourself all you need is 1 great player and a few people using cheats to play against him. you'll be surprised to learn he'll still be better than anyone using cheats(usually most cheats have weaknesses you can exploit - great players will jump all over this).
of course lots of people get accused of cheating but i'm talking about the times when players(who are almost always super-competitive) become so convinced that so and so is cheating they run a community smear campaign against the accused cheater. usually accusations are not based on anything like fact and closely resemble witch hunts. i remember huge threads on messageboards over people who analysed the accused cheaters demos - watching it in slow motion, watching it with cheats installed to see if it makes more sense, etc yet many times that same player will show up at a lan or have many people vouch for them but they are still forever known as a cheater. if someone calls you a cheater w/o hard evidence(like a punkbuster violation) it's usually because of a much different reason(their hurt ego, hate, jealous of your skills) than they actually expect you are cheating.
the few times i've experimented with cheats they've gotten in the way of my playing more than they actually helped. sure, some of the cheats are semi-useful but once you get so good cheats hinder you more than help. humans can outaim aim bots(if you don't believe me you should watch demos of quake/cs/ut), and the various cheats which let you see where the other players are is something most great players already have ingrained into their blood, and thus they don't need these cheats. relying on cheats is a crutch - you can play better without them, if you have enough skill , but for the lesser skilled they can be helpful.
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Rasbelin
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Tampere (Tammerfors), Finland
Nov 1999
time: 07:25
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quote:
It's my experience that most "cheaters" don't cheat at all, they are just good.
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Well, based on my experience from MoH:AA and SH, I can say that most times when you hear that someone is a cheater, it is a cheater. There's several ways you can determin if the person is cheating, but what really helps is that you know how different cheats work and how you know by spectating the suspected player. Also one thing are map glitches which is a very common way of cheating; the easier it's to find them and utilise them, the more people will landshark. Of course good players get called cheaters by toddlers and other newbies, but frankly people usually only seem to whine when someone is actually cheating. There's several games which are proun to cheating because of lack of support and commercial anti-cheating software (we do have several excellent tools for MoH), so they tend to be infested by cheaters. There's a large problem with MoH:AA and SH, but hopefully the situation will improve with SH.
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A friend who is much better gets accused all the time, but it is just skill.
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Indeed, many clan members are frequently accused, but it's mostly a last resort for newbies to get some attention, so they whine and start calling people with names (i.e. generally acting like 7 years-old children). Of course we do have clans which are all cheating or then someone has decided to try and cheat or use a hack as it makes him maybe better
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relying on cheats is a crutch - you can play better without them, if you have enough skill , but for the lesser skilled they can be helpful.
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And it's also a matter of honesty.  However cheating shouldn't be accepted under any circumstances as it only promotes unfairness and soon there won't be that many servers left where you can find cheat free players.
So what should be done?
There's 3 measures that would help a lot.
1. The game studios and publishers should be more interested in combating cheating and also pay more attention to the cheating and hacking aspects of their games. EA Games is well-known for being ignorant with the MoH series as they're more interested in the profits. In general more options for checking the players' settings remotely should be implemented (the "dumpuser" command isn't good enough) and any maps and other objects should be tested properly for glitches and other bugs.
2. Game publishers should more actively promote anti-cheating software and also show interest in the products by integrating support for them in the games. These aren't the ultimate solution, but they help indeed. Especially a player name registration feature will be useful against impersonating.
3. A clamp down on websites that provide hacks for games would be very effective as currently there's only a few well-known sites that seem to be the backbone of the cheating community.
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Rasbelin
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Tampere (Tammerfors), Finland
Nov 1999
time: 07:25
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quote:
Originally posted by pg
i'm not familiar with these games or the term 'landshark' but unless it's really something nasty i'd probably say it's fair game. map glitches are part of the game even if they change the game somewhat from how it was designed. most exploits are good for the game in the long run, as they increase the skill depth. just look at what rocketing jumping, and bunny hopping has done. of course if the exploit is unbalanced then it needs to go but as long as it's within reason i like games with lots of little tricks, and exploits. casual players probably dislike many of these but competitive players love them.
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landshark = walking under the map so that your head is visible on the surface of the map
Using map glitches for getting under the map is unfair as you can't kill a person who's under the map, but who indeed can see inside all buildings and into dark corners, and then simply shoot them, while the opponent can't do anything. That's an unfair advantage which is not BTW used by competitive players (only a lamer walks under the map for that advantage). So as many as possible should be fixed.
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and how do they know exactly?
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If you have RCON access, you can run "dumpuser" and check for any possible sunburst, neon and other unauthorised skins (these become nasty when you use the force models option) and you can check for what cvars the user is using, or you can check in spectator mode if they clearly have a walk under the map, telenade, wallhack, foghack, aimbot or recoil hack. There's other ways too (MOHAA CI, Ponto40 and Delator) for cheat checking. However most of these apply only to server supervisors and more experienced players that know how to identify them.
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maybe there are just some tricks most players do not know. there are all sorts of tricks most casual players, and competitive players are clueless about.
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Yes, indeed. Not all hacks are that well-known and more are to come. 
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pg
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quote:
Originally posted by Rasbelin
landshark = walking under the map so that your head is visible on the surface of the map
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wow, that is a quite a nasty one. i've never seen that in an id based game before. if they haven't fixed that one yet it might not ever get fixed. you'd probably need access to the editable map files to recomplie new fixed maps.
quote:
Originally posted by Rasbelin
If you have RCON access, you can run "dumpuser" and check for any possible sunburst, neon and other unauthorised skins (these become nasty when you use the force models option) and you can check for what cvars the user is using, or you can check in spectator mode if they clearly have a walk under the map, telenade, wallhack, foghack, aimbot or recoil hack. There's other ways too (MOHAA CI, Ponto40 and Delator) for cheat checking. However most of these apply only to server supervisors and more experienced players that know how to identify them.
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ah, ok that is proof. i thought you were just relying on spectating ppl without any hard evidence. i have to mention this though because it's really related to cheating and some people even consider it the same subject - some of these realism games are too stringent and name too many things as cheats. the best example are the games which have started to limit your gamma settings(does mohaa do this?). that's just insane considering how much those values vary per video card, monitor, drivers, etc.
it's useless to try and enforce standards when you cannot even verify them! i understand it's possible to set a certain value range that would be good enough for almost anyone to ensure playability but someone with an already brighter setup would still be able to use as high a setting as someone with a very dark setup. if you can't make sure everyone has fair access to the exact(or very near) results on their screen(not just settings) there is no reason to try enforce certain rules as they are not fair(unless you are part of the mob who screams cheater at everyone!).
what's next limiting mouse sensitivity or sound settings?  of course it's telling that most games don't limit sound yet because the mob doesn't understand it very well, yet tweaked sound settings are usually much more important than anything graphical.
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DrSpike
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Enthusiastic member of Apolyton
Sep 2001
time: 05:25
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quote:
Originally posted by pg
i'll tell you from experience that there are more cheaters than you expect but the majority of accused cheaters on the internet are not really cheaters. most people who cheat aren't great players, and usually only the really great players have accusations of cheating stick. a great player is a guy who never seems to die, get 3x the frags of everyone else, and do jaw dropping things at ease. a great player with insane mad skills can out pretty much outplay any cheater. next time you are at a big lan you can test it yourself all you need is 1 great player and a few people using cheats to play against him. you'll be surprised to learn he'll still be better than anyone using cheats(usually most cheats have weaknesses you can exploit - great players will jump all over this).
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Pg I know you are qw player, since we chatted about this before. I don't know the situation there, but in Quake3, which I play, the best players in the world could not beat a reasonable player with the latest bots.
What is more, to your later points about not being able to tell from spectating, as an experienced player I can usually tell within a few minutes of spectating whether a player is using an aimbot. If the player is very careful it can sometimes be hard.......but they usually slip up.
Thankfully I use this skill mostly to shut people up when they call good players cheats, but alas not always.
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pg
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quote:
Originally posted by DrSpike
Pg I know you are qw player, since we chatted about this before. I don't know the situation there, but in Quake3, which I play, the best players in the world could not beat a reasonable player with the latest bots.
What is more, to your later points about not being able to tell from spectating, as an experienced player I can usually tell within a few minutes of spectating whether a player is using an aimbot. If the player is very careful it can sometimes be hard.......but they usually slip up. |
when i talk about quake it's always qw. i guess i should have made that clear. qw is really different than q3, it's a bit hard to explain unless you play it. in a few yrs q3 will probably be in a much similar situation especially if it goes open source and continues to have a big player base.
i also am talking about the really high level of play where people like zero4, fatality, etc are the ppl you will competiting against(i've played with zero4/fat in qw before). if you follow the competitive q3 scene closely you'll know hardly any top players have ever been caught cheating or using a bot. that's because they are obvious with inhuman lg/rg percentages. the latest ogc/etc are a bit too good, so you can't expect to use them and get away with it. the only cheats worth using are the ones which are so good that they give themselves away. i don't really care too much about the other cheats which aren't obvious as they don't offer that big an advantage. it's like a catch 22, sure there are some people who are in the middle and benefit from cheats but it really isn't that many.
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01-02-2003 18:10
Actually, no. It sounds like a typical thing to expect from the people who play that game.
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