07-02-2003 10:45									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Togas This is a good idea, but how would we do it with the poll system if at all? --Togas

Poll by post. Everyone posts in the thread with their three choices. The thread starter and any else who are interested tote up the results. I don't think it is the sort of issue that requires secret ballots, is it?

	07-02-2003 10:52									#62
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quote: Originally posted by BetaHound For now - and to help focus the debate - a number of sites have yet to register with their game parameter votes - but the early returns indicate standard map size, continents 2, normal climate/age, and regent difficulty (having the first player go through the re-load process for getting around the difficulty bug). I for one like the idea of a 'second tier' civ, for the reasons stated above. (and hey - I got the mongols in the Misfits game... ) At any rate - I hope to be back here tomorrow with final results. CGN, the last site into the game, and ourselves are done. Firaxis will play with whatever the other 7 decide. And CDG has only decided upon difficulty and map size. Will keep you posted - pardon the pun. ....Beta.

For those settings I would choose from these civs:

-Expantionist & Industrious
America, F-15, 8/4 100 shields 6 OpRng 4/0/2 Bmb/Rng/RoF, replaces Jet Fighter.

-Expantionist & Religious
Iroquois, Mounted Warrior, 3/1/2 30 shields, replaces Horseman.
Arabia, Ansar warrior, 4/2/3 60 shields, replaces Knight.

-Industrious & Commercial
France, Musketeer, 3/4/1 60 shields, replaces Musketman.
Carthage, Numidian Mercenary, 2/3/1 30 shields, replaces Spearman.

-Industrious & Religious
Egypt, War Chariot, 2/1/2 20 shields, replaces Chariots, Wheeled.

	07-02-2003 13:30									#63
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither For those settings I would choose from these civs: -Expantionist & Industrious America, F-15, 8/4 100 shields 6 OpRng 4/0/2 Bmb/Rng/RoF, replaces Jet Fighter. -Expantionist & Religious Iroquois, Mounted Warrior, 3/1/2 30 shields, replaces Horseman. Arabia, Ansar warrior, 4/2/3 60 shields, replaces Knight. -Industrious & Commercial France, Musketeer, 3/4/1 60 shields, replaces Musketman. Carthage, Numidian Mercenary, 2/3/1 30 shields, replaces Spearman. -Industrious & Religious Egypt, War Chariot, 2/1/2 20 shields, replaces Chariots, Wheeled.

hi ,

now that looks like a nice top ten

in most (deity) games with the AI the us , correction read exp civs get to be huge countries , the same for industrial ones , only one nation combines the two traits that are the most succesfull , the americans

have a nice day

	07-02-2003 16:15									#64
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And here is my thoughts for the day.
The goal here is to win the game...we can all agree to that.

How do we win ?
Vote ? For some reason...I don’t think so
Space Race ? Histiograph ? My grandkids will have to play for me if we last that long.
Cultural ? Yuk...but if we want to , then the Babs would be the choice civ
Military ? Yes of course.

So if we are going to win military, then don’t discount a military trait.
In my SP games, you get twice as many elites using militaristic civs, and this usually generates twice a many leaders....And Elite units are far more successful in battles than vets.
And as to the suggestion that Elites will see "special" attention from rival civs, I say that we would only be picking fights that we know we can win, and we too can pay "special" attention to the protection of our elites.

Also, if we are going to win using a military solution, then we need to rule an age. We need a UU that really shines. I prefer to do peaceful Rex expansion, then go hard at it with a powerful UU. Knight replacements are my favorite choice.

If you go to aggressive too early, the other civs will gang up on you...AI did not do this (or you could manipulate them to not do it), but Human players WILL band together to eliminate a powerful Civ.

NOTE... this also is the same for teams who go too hard with diplomacy, or Rex too fast early in the game by popping an early settler.

So...I suggest peaceful / easy to get along with / good trade for the first age, then go hard at it early in the second age...then consolidate and win the game.

Other traits I would enjoy have already been suggested.

Industrious of course.
Religious for Govt swapping, however with WW being reduced, religious is less important.
Expansionist for those early goodie huts....You only need to pop a couple of free techs. Be the first to meet other civs, and you can have a tech lead like no other.

So...My choices would be

1. Chinese for the traits and their UU (M/I & the Rider)
2. Arabs for their traits & UU (R/E & Ansar)
3. Japanese (M/R & the Samuri)
4. Vikings (M/E & the Beserker)
5. Iroquoi (R/E & MW)

Regs

	07-02-2003 17:19									#65
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HE, I think you just hit on something that most people will miss.

Cultural victory.

I know it sounds blah, but lets think about this for a sec.
No one is ever going to win a Diplomatic victory. Out of the question.
Historygraph. If the other sites notice that we are winning via historygraph and the end of the game is approaching, we will get pummeled.
Space Race. Again, very easy to observe. Once some one builds Apollo, everyone will be watching the space ships. If anyone gets close, they will get pummeled.
Military. I'm not sure about you guys, but with my experience in MP, I have only seen one victory via military (it was an unexpected lesson in the Jag rush). Anytime one team gets an edge, others will come to help so the game stays on an even footing. Military will require massive amounts of troops in MP. All teams military might will be watched closely by everyone and balanced by everyone. If one team gets to large, guess what will happen.

Culture. First civ to 100,000 culture points. How is your culture watched by other teams? They look at the historygraph culture section. They will see a signifacant rize in culture, but will have no idea when a team will get to 100,000. It will just happen one turn and everyone will get the message "You have acheived a Cultural Victory".
Game over. We win. And nobody sees it comming.

With this in mind, I would say we go for any civ that has Rel or Sci. Maybe even one that has both so we get cheap temples, Cathedrals, Libraries and universities.

Hmmm... kinda ironic having the guy who founded the Glory of War propose such a thing. Sorta like Thud running for SMC in the SPDG...

Edit: Forgot to mention Space Ship. Maybe scratch the Sci/Rel combo as there is only one civ with these traits (Babylon) and their UU is so-so at best. Other teams might catch on early.
However, we could pick Babylon as a "Second tier" or even a "Disadvantaged" civ as a cover for a cultural squishing.

Last edited by Donegeal on 07-02-2003 at 19:04

	07-02-2003 19:27									#66
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100k is relatively easy to see coming from the F8 screen, and getting 2x the culture of anyone who is paying attention isn't very likely. Especially since demogames tend to use rather broad strategies, not focusing in on any one area like a single player might. That means most teams will have Libraries, Temples, ect. in most if not all of their cities. The only way to double up on culture in such a situation is to have double the cities.

That means either tight ICS (dangerous in MP, and seemingly not a popular demogame tactic ), or having an empire twice the size of anyone else. If we have the 2x empire and can hold it, then really we could pick just about any condition we wanted.

I can't see a 20k victory happening unless some civ is in a position to defend against the rest of the world for about 50 turns in the late Industrial/early Modern era. It's far too obvious and it's just one city that needs to be taken out.

	07-02-2003 21:27									#67
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Cultural Victory would probably take longer than the space ship unless the world is going slow reseraching.

In addition, it's quite easily to tell the ratios of cultural via the score screen and selecting culture and the Top 5 Cities will easily tell you if someone is going for the Single City version based on the large # of GW you see listed on the #1 city. Plus the same screen also shows someone going for the overall version via having 3+ of these cities.

	07-02-2003 21:31									#68
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There is an easier workaround that having the first player uninstall PTW, install the version without the difficulty bug , play the turn, and then reinstall the current version:

Simply have the first player make a backup of their bic / bix files, and then mod all the levels to the desired standard level settings. Since the settings are stored along with the slave, no one else needs to do a thing, and the bug will have no effect other than the label.

	07-02-2003 21:38									#69
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First Choice : America.

Second Choice : France

Third Choice : Carthenage.

The first two choices are especally good for "flying under the radar". Picking something like the Ottomans is basically a statement that we are planning to lauch a major attack the moment we get Military Tradition. Similarly, picking any of the replacement for a Knights UU or the Vickies is an annoucment that we are planning a major attack right after the middle age begins.

With America & France, it's not as clear to others on when our major offensive is planned.

	07-02-2003 23:57									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel If you go to aggressive too early, the other civs will gang up on you...AI did not do this (or you could manipulate them to not do it), but Human players WILL band together to eliminate a powerful Civ. So...I suggest peaceful / easy to get along with / good trade for the first age, then go hard at it early in the second age...then consolidate and win the game.

I fully agree. What you want to do is be the "Good guy", stay below the radar, and wait for someone else to make themselves the "Bad Guy" by stomping on some poor civ and annoying everyone else in the game. Play the politics of the situation. Grow at the expense of others only when you can create a strong public justification for your actions. Try not to be seen as the "instigator" of foreign wars, merely a victim or a nation pushed to fight by a ruthless neighbor.

quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel 2. Arabs for their traits & UU (R/E & Ansar) 5. Iroquoi (R/E & MW)

I really like both of these civ choices. If I can't play an Industrious civ, the combination of R/E tends to be my second favorite choice. They also have excellent UUs.

--Togas

	07-02-2003 23:58									#71
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Oh, my votes for our civ:

1) Carthage
2) Arabs
3) Iriquois

--Togas

	08-02-2003 00:36									#72
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My choices:
1) Carthage
2) Spain
3) India

	08-02-2003 01:56									#73
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1) Carthage
2) France
3) Babylon

	08-02-2003 03:38									#74
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Do we want to continue the polling here, or would folks like me to start a new thread for votes only, with the discussion staying here? As only three have voted, if we are going to do it - let's do it now. Let me know - I am on-line for the evening.

And btw - another team's votes are in - map still looks like standard size, and 'continents' has already won the vote.

	08-02-2003 04:08									#75
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Easy enough to continue here. It may be easier for people to review the discussion and then vote.

	08-02-2003 04:40									#76
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1) Carthage

Not in order....I'm Undesided on this part still
2) Arabia
3) France

E_T

	08-02-2003 05:04									#77
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Why don't we just start three polls for first, second, and third choice? No postcount, I know, but it has automatic tallying.

	08-02-2003 05:29									#78
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1. Carthage.
2. France.
3. Egypt.

	08-02-2003 05:41									#79
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One of the pluses of this system is that I can 'hound' those who have not yet voted.

	08-02-2003 06:11									#80
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LOL... true. I vote:
Carthage
Egypt
Babylon

	08-02-2003 06:15									#81
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quote: Originally posted by BetaHound One of the pluses of this system is that I can 'hound' those who have not yet voted.

You are such a good Doggie....

E_T

	08-02-2003 06:29									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Why don't we just start three polls for first, second, and third choice? No postcount, I know, but it has automatic tallying.

People could vote for the same civ in all three polls, giving that civ 6 points.

Plus some would post at least once in each thread... That sounds like more spam to me, not less.

	08-02-2003 08:59									#83
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My votes are clearly tainted by the previous votes... I will post them now so they don't get any moreso.

1. Babylon (just because it looks to be the only non-'best' civ with a chance so far)
2. English
3. Ottomans

	08-02-2003 09:38									#84
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither People could vote for the same civ in all three polls, giving that civ 6 points. Plus some would post at least once in each thread... That sounds like more spam to me, not less.

hi ,

, we should get a poll with one choice only , ....

have a nice day

	08-02-2003 11:48									#85
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My choices, in order, would be:

1. Carthage
2. Ottoman
3. American

	08-02-2003 13:02									#86
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1) America (Exp, Ind)
2) England (Exp, Comm)
3) France (Ind, Comm)

As I have said before, I am not really in favour of picking any of the "best" civs. Any mixture of Exp, Comm, and Ind would do for me (preferrably no strong UU - good point made about flying under the radar). The game should be more fun that way. And more of a challenge, too - we do believe we are the best, don't we? So why not proving it by taking a less than perfect civ? It may be that such an approach could gain us even a couple of "popularity" points before playing the first turn...

	08-02-2003 13:07									#87
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ZargonX counted. I will add others tomorrow. Tis too late...

	08-02-2003 13:11									#88
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Yes - Flying under the radar...its smart, but we still have to win via the military.

So I now would choose

(1) Arabs (R/E) Ansar 4/2/3 - Just for the UU
(2) Mongols (M/E) Keshic 4/2/2
(3) Japanese (M/R) Samuri 4/4/2

	08-02-2003 18:25									#89
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1. Babylon - for a cultural win; it would be impressive to win with a non-best civ
2. China - the best UU, exactly when it's needed the most; for a military win
On a second thought, I want Greece instead. For Apolyton and MarkG (I hope nye didn't count my vote yet)
3. English - may the worst civ (and the best players) win

Last edited by Tiberius on 08-02-2003 at 21:21

	08-02-2003 18:31									#90
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Hmm...France is currently 2nd in voting. I don't know about everyone else, but since their is probably 50/50 chance, maybe less that we wont get Carthage, do we REALLY want to play france. I don't.