03-02-2003 04:08									#1
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Here is a list of civs with UUs sorted by combination of attributes. These are from the PTW editor and should be more accurate than any guide or the manual. Please let me know if you spot an error.


-Commercial & Scientific
Greece, Hoplite, 1/3/1 20 shields, replaces Spearman.
Korea, Hwach'a, 0/0/1 40 shields 12/1/1 Bmb/Rng/RoF, replaces Cannon, Wheeled.

-Expantionist & Commercial
England, Man-O-War, 3/2/4 60 shields 3/1/2 Bmb/Rng/RoF, replaces Frigate.

-Expantionist & Scientific
Russia, Cossack, 6/4/3 80 shields, replaces Cavalry, ZOC.

-Expantionist & Industrious
America, F-15, 8/4 100 shields 6 OpRng 4/0/2 Bmb/Rng/RoF, replaces Jet Fighter.

-Expantionist & Militaristic
Zululand, Impi, 1/2/2 20 shields, replaces Spearman.
Mongols, Keshik, 4/2/2 60 shields, replaces Knight, ZOC, ignores move cost of Mountains.
Scandinavia, Berzerk, 6/2/1 70 shields, replaces Longbowman, Amphibious.

-Expantionist & Religious
Iroquois, Mounted Warrior, 3/1/2 30 shields, replaces Horseman.
Arabia, Ansar warrior, 4/2/3 60 shields, replaces Knight.

-Industrious & Commercial
France, Musketeer, 3/4/1 60 shields, replaces Musketman.
Carthage, Numidian Mercenary, 2/3/1 30 shields, replaces Spearman.

-Industrious & Militaristic
China, Rider, 4/3/3 70 shields, replaces Knight.

-Industrious & Religious
Egypt, War Chariot, 2/1/2 20 shields, replaces Chariots, Wheeled.

-Industrious & Scientific
Persia, Immortals, 4/2/1 30 shields, replaces Swordsman.
Ottomans, Sipahi, 8/3/3 100 shields, replaces Cavalry, ZOC.

-Militaristic & Commercial
Rome, Legionary, 3/3/1 30 shields, replaces Swordsman.

-Militaristic & Religious
Japan, Samurai, 4/4/2 70 shields, replaces Knight.
Aztecs, Jaguar Warrior, 1/1/2 10 shields, replaces Warrior.
Celts, Gallic Swordsman, 3/2/2 50 shields, replaces Swordsman.

-Militaristic & Scientific
Germany, Panzer, 16/8/3 100 shields, replaces Tank, Blitz, ZOC.

-Religious & Commercial
India, War Elephant, 4/3/2 70 shields, replaces Knight, no resource requirement.
Spain, Conquistador, 3/2/2 70 shields, replaces Explorer, requires Horses, All Terrain as Roads.

-Religious & Scientific
Babylon, Bowman, 2/2/1 20 shields, replaces Archer.

	03-02-2003 04:09									#2
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Contrary to what some may think, I do not believe there is a single right answer for civ traits. Much depends on the map. Traits that rule on Pangaea may not be as strong on Archi.

For that reason, I suggest that we find out the map options for the game before we finalise our first and second choices for civs. In the mean time, much remains to be discussed so that we may hopefully arrive at two or three choices that reflect the preferences of the largest possible number of our members.

I will post my thoughts on traits in a bit.

	03-02-2003 05:56									#3
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Contrary to what some may think, I do not believe there is a single right answer for civ traits. Much depends on the map. Traits that rule on Pangaea may not be as strong on Archi. For that reason, I suggest that we find out the map options for the game before we finalise our first and second choices for civs. In the mean time, much remains to be discussed so that we may hopefully arrive at two or three choices that reflect the preferences of the largest possible number of our members. I will post my thoughts on traits in a bit.

Right on, nye! So here is the current schedule. I will take our final game parameter decisions to the intersite discussion tomorrow. We expect final game parameters by Thursday - if not earlier. That will give us next weekend-plus to hammer out a civ choice.

I think the early debate is very useful - and is best kicked-off via the approach you have used. In the discussions, it looks like you should assume 6 (maybe 7 civs), standard map, continents, and normal climate and age. No AI's. Barbarians look like the only wild card. Yet to be determined.

	03-02-2003 06:03									#4
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For what are civ traits most important when playing against humans? Are they most important for helping a civ build the space ship? Researching ToE first? Building Cavalry? None of these would be where the civ traits are most critical.

A civ which does not survive through the Medeival Age will have no use for Cavalry. A civ which trails in research will not research ToE first. A civ of insufficient size will never complete the space ship, against humans.

Where then do civ traits help the most against humans? The answer would be early in the game. If REXing is the way to build strong empires, the traits which aid REXing would be the most desirable. Once a civ is the largest and strongest then building more cavalry, getting to ToE first, and launching the space ship become possible.

The point is that when the AI is replaced by humans at the controls of all the civs, then all the rules have changed. When playing against humans becoming bigger, stronger, faster is critical. A human civ will not be bought off with an easy peace when they have defeated our armies. A human civ will not expand to the number of cities limit and then slow dramatically allowing the trailers to catch up. A human civ will be prebuilding wonders just like we do. Thus being that civ which is out in front is critical.

Which traits are the most help in giving the lead in size and power coming near the end of the Ancient and going into the Medeival Ages?

Religious: On any map being religious is beneficial. One turn government changes are more useful than many may think. If it takes 100 turns to reach Republic (that would be very long) then the five or six turns saved in changing governments would be 5% of total production and research to that point. If then attacked by a war-like neighbour, the additional time saved switching to Monarchy and back again represent another ten or twelve turns of production and research. That is why I see religious as being very valuable.

Industrious: Not a lot needs to be said about the benefit of quick roads, mines and irrigation for REXing, and in fact the entire game. Industrious is the no-brainer of the civ traits. It is valuable in any game.

Expantionist: The value of Scouts and always good results from goodie huts is more controvertial. There are many threads on the subject, but what I would like to emphasise is that the benefits of Expantionist are perfect for most maps with humans for exactly the reasons outlined above. A free settler in the first 10 to 20 turns of a game can set a civ out in front never to look back. The many techs received from huts ensure that the Expantionist civ will be ahead in tech and if larger, should get out of the Ancient Age first as well as being among the larger civs. How many games do Expantionist civs get a free settler? Over 50% that I have seen, and that can be increased if a few tricks are used. The one draw back of Expantionist is that it is not useful in all games. On archi maps, or if starting on a small island in a continents game, then the value of Expantionist is largely nullified. Thus, I recommend Expantionist only for games where continents or pangaea are known to be the map type.

Militaristic: For games against humans Militaristic is marginalised as a trait. The number of combats where our forces will win promotions will be diminished considerably as human civs will certainly not be as prone to commit forces in a suicidal manner. Furthermore, wounded elite units would be prime targets for counter attacks, and thus building up and maintianing a corp of elite units should be much more difficult.

Commercial: Someone might be able to make a case for Commercial being useful for a civ coming out of the Ancient Age, however I can see no reason to choose Commercial at this time, except perhaps for Archi maps where far fewer cities would be close to the capitol.

Scientific: Scientific is not highly prized by a large number of people in SP. In MP it has even less regard. Two of the three free techs come when the game has largely been decided. Cheap libraries are never a bad thing, but the benefits of the Religious, Expantionist, and Industrious traits in the early game overwhelm this benefit by a large margin.

Last edited by notyoueither on 03-02-2003 at 10:52

	03-02-2003 06:07									#5
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quote: Originally posted by BetaHound Right on, nye! So here is the current schedule. I will take our final game parameter decisions to the intersite discussion tomorrow. We expect final game parameters by Thursday - if not earlier. That will give us next weekend-plus to hammer out a civ choice. I think the early debate is very useful - and is best kicked-off via the approach you have used. In the discussions, it looks like you should assume 6 (maybe 7 civs), standard map, continents, and normal climate and age. No AI's. Barbarians look like the only wild card. Yet to be determined.

Thanks BetaHound. I am glad I renewed this discussion now then. We do not have long.

	03-02-2003 06:41									#6
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The usefulness of the Commercial trait comes in managing a sizeable empire. It won't "get you out of the Ancient Age" anymore than Relgious will, but it reduces corruption in all of your cities as if you had courthouses. It's effects are most useful when trying to get your outlying REX'd cities to produce anything. I've also found that it allows your civ to produce more income than your neighbors, which is very useful for mass-upgrade strats.

Religious isn't as valuable as Commercial when there's only 3 turns of anarchy.

--Togas

	03-02-2003 10:19									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Togas The usefulness of the Commercial trait comes in managing a sizeable empire. It won't "get you out of the Ancient Age" anymore than Relgious will, but it reduces corruption in all of your cities as if you had courthouses. It's effects are most useful when trying to get your outlying REX'd cities to produce anything. I've also found that it allows your civ to produce more income than your neighbors, which is very useful for mass-upgrade strats.

I have to disagree re Religious Togas. The difference in outlying cities when Commercial will not be enough to make them more than marginally productive. The difference in core cities (capitol and 1st ring) will be near 0. The middle cities (2nd and 3rd rings) will get some benefit, but I doubt very much that it would make more than 5% difference empire wide.

quote: Religious isn't as valuable as Commercial when there's only 3 turns of anarchy.

With humans, there will be war. there will be war weariness. There will usually be more than one switch. If, of course you can switch from Republic to Monarchy and back at whim. If you cannot, you may find yourself stuck in Monarchy and missing the commercial benefits of Republic for extended periods when you could have been a Republic.

	03-02-2003 10:35									#8
	Full PM-box? Change here!

So Togas is arguing for France/Carthage (Commercial and Industrious) while notyoueither is arguing for Egypt (Religious and Industrious).

I can't say that I'm overly impressed with any of their UU's.

	03-02-2003 11:20									#9
	Put an end to popups!

We should choose our civ based off of color... England or Ottomans.

	03-02-2003 11:23									#10
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I think we can leave France out of it. I look forward to more opinions on this topic, but between Carthage and Egypt, I would say Carthage - you don't have to have horses for their UU.

	03-02-2003 13:36									#11
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither With humans, there will be war. there will be war weariness. There will usually be more than one switch. If, of course you can switch from Republic to Monarchy and back at whim. If you cannot, you may find yourself stuck in Monarchy and missing the commercial benefits of Republic for extended periods when you could have been a Republic.

There was rumors that War Weariness was removed from multiplayer PTW. Has this been been investigated as true ?

The rumor was, that humans would like to war more than when playing the AI, and therefore Fraxis removed it.

I have not had a war during a multiplayer game, so I cant tell you if its true.


Also remember when choosing a Civ, that humans have a tendency to join forces against the biggest threat.
Expand too fast too early, and you will find yourself fighting multiple opponents on multiple fronts.

Slow and easy is the best, and then have a great 2nd age.

My 2cents

Regs

Hot_enamel

	03-02-2003 14:18									#12
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I would say that although militaristic is a tempting trait, NYE has several points that really put that idea to rest, for me personally. The fact that we'll be watching our units much more closely, not committing anything unless we're sure, etc....

Industrious is a must. We should rule out every civ that doesn't have industrious in it's civ abilities.

Expansionistic is a great way to REX quickly in the beginning game, and aids everyone in science, territory, even military.

Commercialism is also a great way to keep your empire strong via rush builds, large profits, etc.

I'd say that although I don't play these particular civs much, but the Americans, Egyptians, Iroquois, Ottomans stand out in particular to me.

	03-02-2003 17:07									#13
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

hi ,

, dont forget the free techs some civ' get , but in the case of the greeks it does not count up to the benefits the americans get , .....

the US gets a scout , they work faster and they get the F-15

the cutting edge in a space race or any war in the last age

so , when are we going to get a new poll

have a nice day

	03-02-2003 20:17									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Meshelic I would say that although militaristic is a tempting trait, NYE has several points that really put that idea to rest, for me personally. The fact that we'll be watching our units much more closely, not committing anything unless we're sure, etc....

But that could also work for the Militaristic trait.

If we are constructing fewer units and protecting them more, the better chance of getting them promoted as quick as possible may be more strategic.

I definitely think Industrious should be one of the traits and would have no problem with the Ottomans but am curious as to what the final settings will be.

	03-02-2003 20:48									#15
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I'm for waiting to know more about the settings... if only because I have no experience with Carthage and remain wary of the opening game with them.

It's a shame the Apolyton's PtWDG game ended up with Legoland's Carthage relatively isolated. It would have been interesting to see how they fared in REX with other human civs close by.

	03-02-2003 21:51									#16
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I agree that we should choose an Industrious civ. I would pair Industrious with Commercial or Religious. I would accept Egypt (my favorite civ) but we've played Egypt before and I've played Egypt far too many times on my own.

What I love about Carthage, other than their two traits, is their UU. Sure, those of you who lust after a quick decisive early rush aren't going to love this civ, but anyone who wants to stick around the game for an extended period of time and dominate via trade, diplomacy, and negotiation will adore it.

No one wants to attack Carthage or Greece in the early game. It has a huge psychological advantage and tends to promote friendly opening relations as opposed to starting with a civ that has a dangerous early UU.

With regards to corruption management, I'm going to have to defer to E_T, our resident corruption expert, and ask him to give you a better explaination. You won't notice the corruption changes initially, but they start showing up around 4 cities and only get better as you get larger. Corruption saps both production and trade. A commercial civ can survive longer without a Forbidden Palace and can outresearch neighboring scientific civs.

Pair commercial with industrial and you have THE most powerful production combination in the game.

--Togas

	03-02-2003 22:11									#17
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As an ardent supporter of Carthage, I would praise its benefits as well. Industrious, as we have all agreed, is a must have trait. Coupled with commercial, you have the capacity to quickly construct a large, connected empire early on with less impact from corruption than you would normally take. On top of that, you have one of the best early defensive units in the game (if not the best) to guard it with.

And for those militaristic types out there, the Num. Merc. makes a great offensive tool as well. Though they are more expensive, you can have a resource-free pikeman, good basically through the discovery of knights (and then some), travelling with stacks of offensive units starting with the discovery of BW. If that's not useful, I don't know what is.

	03-02-2003 23:43									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson We should choose our civ based off of color... England or Ottomans.

Naah... Ok, then!? OTTOS - Nice traits and UU.

	04-02-2003 02:27									#19
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England/Ottos??? Based on color??? If you want a good civ color, we should play the Babs and make sure someone else picks Rome. That blue is real pretty.

Anyway... good arguments on both Carthage and Egypt sides. But I really like Religious...

	04-02-2003 05:56									#20
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Carthage!

I'm convinced

	04-02-2003 07:18									#21
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Yes Carthage, but we will likely have to fight other teams for it and will likely not get it. Because of this IMHO we need a 2nd civ choice with some combination of Industrious/Religious/Expansionist(Pangeaa) or Commercial (Arch)

Possible options for all landmasses:

Eygpt(Ind/Rel): Used in SP demogame. Don't like in MP DG because UU is so early. In order to use this unit for it's maximum effectiveness against humans, we would have to attack while our expansion is still occurring, which I feel is bad in MP games. That also means a Despot GA. Which should be avoided, if we can.

Possible for Pangaea:

America(Ind/Exp): Rejected because of UU. Enough said.

Iroqious(Rel/Exp): Mounted Warriors are great. If we are willing to live without Industrious a very good choice.

Arabia(Rel/Exp): Another good UU. I actually prefer this in MP to MW's because extra attack is invaluable is both striking a city without having to stop in their territory first, very critical in MP, and valuable for defense.

Possible for Arch:

French(Ind/Comm): SEE AMERICA

India(Rel/Comm): Very usual on arch maps with many islands, as elephants require no resources. Will also be useful if map setting are more likely to deny us Iron, like older (flatter) map

Special Mention:

China(Ind/Mil) and Persia (Ind/Sci): Combo of strong UU and industrious trait warrant attention.

Last edited by CiverDan on 04-02-2003 at 07:33

	04-02-2003 07:49									#22
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Do we really want to go with one of 'the best' civs? I think we should take a middle of the road civ to be on par with those teams which will choose their civ based off of nationality. I personally wouldn't want an advantage from the start. If we get an advantage, let it be by random chance (map position, or even take a random civ) or based off how well we play.

I think Industrious + a good early UU are the civs we should avoid. Any other civs are likely to be more balanced with the French, Germans, and Spanish (not sure which national teams will be playing).

	04-02-2003 09:00									#23
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Some random thoughts...

Expansionist - A real wild card. Useful to map out the area, find neighbors quickly, and popping those huts. I picked up PTW just over a week ago and started a couple of SP games. I have not seen a settler or worker from a hut while I have received a town a couple of times. I never got a town in Civ3. I don't know if this is an expansionist only ability or if all civs can get a town. Value of expansionist is significantly reduced if there are no goody huts or on a young map that has lots of mountains.

Commercial - In my games the real benefit of commercial has been later in the game (i.e., Industrial age and on) with large empires. Around that time I was able to do most research in the minimum number of turns because I had so much cash coming in. The research went very quickly. In those games I had taken out or severly beaten up on a few AI civs. I controlled a lot of land with lots of cities. The chances of doing that against humans is far less likely.

Militaristic - Even if a weaken elite unit becomes a target, more promotions mean more hit points and that increases the chance of victory in any battle.

Religious - The real power here is the cheaper Temples and Cathedrals. Both are must build items in my book. The quicker government change is a nice bonus with the value dependent on the situation. Less important in a peaceful situation, more important during war.

I have played with each of the attributes and put the strengths of each to use (all were SP games). My favorite attibutes are Militaristic, Industrious and Religious.

UUs - Although the Carthage UU is nice for its defensive capabilities I don't like the extra 10 shield cost just to get another point in offensive capability. Greece gets the same 3 defense rating without the extra shield cost. For the shield cost Rome gets the same defense rating plus an even higher 3 attack rating. I don't consider a 2 attack 1 move unit to be an offensive unit in the Ancient age. The Numid. Merc can stand up to barbarians or resource/production restricted civs that send out lots of archers. They will be less useful against humans who use better strategy and take advantage of terrain. The Celts UU is an amazing combination for the Ancient age. It matches/beats the attack rating of any Ancient unit except for the Persian Immortal, it has the defense rating of the standard Spearman, and it has the high mobility of the mounted units. The downside is the highest cost of any Ancient unit, an Ancient GA, and it upgrades to Med. Inf. where it loses mobility (the only upgrade I can think of where that happens). A couple of UUs I am eyeing are the Chinese Rider, good mobility and a nicely timed GA for those great Medival wonders, and the Ottomans' Sipahi, an 8 attack can roust out entrenched Medival defeners and is still a good match in the early Industrial age against Riflemen.

Edit - I forgot to include Industrious in my favorite attributes, Mil/Ind/Rel. I seem to get the most out of combinations of these three.

Last edited by HarryH on 04-02-2003 at 09:09

	04-02-2003 17:06									#24
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HarryH, i gotta mention the Scandinavians who got this nice Berserker. (4,4,1)

Though they moving slower than the equally strong Samurai (4,4,2). Both are medieval units, and I use to emphasize warfare in this age.(exept for the earlykills one has to do sometimes) Japan is still one of my favourite civs.


For the other traits, I like Expansionist and Militarist best.

	04-02-2003 17:13									#25
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quote: Originally posted by CiverDan Yes Carthage, but we will likely have to fight other teams for it and will likely not get it. Because of this IMHO we need a 2nd civ choice with some combination of Industrious/Religious/Expansionist(Pangeaa) or Commercial (Arch) Possible options for all landmasses: Eygpt(Ind/Rel): Used in SP demogame. Don't like in MP DG because UU is so early. In order to use this unit for it's maximum effectiveness against humans, we would have to attack while our expansion is still occurring, which I feel is bad in MP games. That also means a Despot GA. Which should be avoided, if we can. Possible for Pangaea: America(Ind/Exp): Rejected because of UU. Enough said. Iroqious(Rel/Exp): Mounted Warriors are great. If we are willing to live without Industrious a very good choice. Arabia(Rel/Exp): Another good UU. I actually prefer this in MP to MW's because extra attack is invaluable is both striking a city without having to stop in their territory first, very critical in MP, and valuable for defense. Possible for Arch: French(Ind/Comm): SEE AMERICA India(Rel/Comm): Very usual on arch maps with many islands, as elephants require no resources. Will also be useful if map setting are more likely to deny us Iron, like older (flatter) map Special Mention: China(Ind/Mil) and Persia (Ind/Sci): Combo of strong UU and industrious trait warrant attention.

hi ,

to reject the US only because of the UU , ......

they get a scout , that means a good chance of a free settler , loads of techs and free money early on , the traits they have make them good builders , so everything is more then compensated early on , .....

have a nice day

	04-02-2003 18:38									#26
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I agree, we should not judge a civ only by its UU. Ind/exp is a powerful early tool - what good is a uu if youre not around to enjoy it? Also, for French: whats so bad about their UU? I know it doesn't have super attack, but it is more useful on a battlefield as a support unit - especially pilliaging resource tiled!

	04-02-2003 19:02									#27
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You are right about the French musketeer.
They only look homosexual when they come with the pink coats.
So do the kinky pink underwear warrior...

Last edited by ThePlagueRat on 05-02-2003 at 00:36

	04-02-2003 23:18									#28
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I agree that UUs should be secondary. UUs as an offensive force do not come into play in every game. Civ traits do.

Although, Togas made a good point that there is a psychology of the UUs. I'm not convinced that avoiding the big nasties is necessary though. Take the Iroquois for example, They get their big nasty at a time when most civs could not do anything about it, except die. Combine Mounted Warriors with a free settler from a hut in the first 10 or 20 turns and... mega death and destruction on your nearest neighbour. Ask Eli of the Persians what it is like.

	05-02-2003 00:54									#29
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You are right about that, notyoueither...
Numidian mercs or Babylonian bowmen can also cause megadeath in an early game. I used to scare off some MP-opponents at our first meeting, using such UU.


Chat phrases like: "Move away or I kill your settler." or "Gimme techs, or die" works fine when you have these UUs sneaking around the fresh opponents city. No need to use them UUs, if you get what you want. If you don't get what you want, you can just say "Mwuhahaa... Blood shall run!"

Well, it's just an effective playstyle...sometimes.
I'm usually a nice guy. Likes to trade and be fair, etc.

	05-02-2003 02:28									#30
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I didn't intend my choices to be solely based on the UU. The are best choices, in my opinion, when traits and UU are considered together.