04-02-2003 06:33									#1
	MP before SP Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Anyone planning to jump right into MP before playing the game in SP?

I'm a SP dude.

Just wondering how many think they know MOO well enough to say "screw getting familiar with the new game, let's get it on"

I still maintain that SP is the heart of TBS games, at least at this point in time.

This post is brought up by the story about the German LAN party being scheduled.

	04-02-2003 07:10									#2
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from what i'm hearing from the beta testers, playing MP with no previous experience is not only a serious mistake, but may be almost impossible. MOO3 has a very steep learning curve.

	04-02-2003 07:14									#3
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MP is a bandaid for the fact that SP AI's generally suck... no one in their right mind would choose an MP game over a SP game for a TBS, if the AI were as skilled and adaptive as a human opponent, cos they could play when ever, how ever long, choose *how* skilled their opponent was and their opponent would never b1tch about losing... oh... and you could have any number of these opponents.

	04-02-2003 08:45									#4
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins MP is a bandaid for the fact that SP AI's generally suck... no one in their right mind would choose an MP game over a SP game for a TBS, if the AI were as skilled and adaptive as a human opponent, cos they could play when ever, how ever long, choose *how* skilled their opponent was and their opponent would never b1tch about losing... oh... and you could have any number of these opponents.

Well, this may apply to you, but not to everyone. Some people DO actually prefer to play against human players, because there is a thrill in it that doesn't come from playing a computer.

	04-02-2003 08:58									#5
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That assumes that humans you face will always be more skillful than an AI.

An adaptive AI combining the best strategies of human play, could ultimately play better than a ever human could, since a human doesn't have the same ability for internal statistical analysis that a computer does (given appropriate data.) A human cannot perform several million calculations a second. Also no human intrinsicly 'knows' all the other strategies and game histories that an adaptive AI might use, gleaned from a large subset of humans, playing a large sample of games.

MrBaggins

	04-02-2003 08:58									#6
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Comps never play as well as humans. I prefer MP.

	04-02-2003 08:59									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Comps never play as well as humans. I prefer MP.

They haven't. Yet.

	04-02-2003 09:02									#8
	Put an end to popups!

Long yet.

	04-02-2003 09:20									#9
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Who can say? Very difficult to know when it will... but its more a when than if; the improving financial modelling AI models will ultimately be leveraged for game intelligence.

	04-02-2003 09:22									#10
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and computer games (and AI) haven't been around long in terms of human history... so its really quite a short yet.

	04-02-2003 09:34									#11
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sp is just masturbation.

	04-02-2003 09:39									#12
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and MP is mutual masturbation (generally with other males)

so whats your point?

	04-02-2003 09:55									#13
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Train up on SP first.... duh?

	04-02-2003 10:10									#14
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All the challenge is in playing humans. Bliss.

	04-02-2003 11:07									#15
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Back in the bad old days before computer games, or at least before anything other than arcade-style games, all you had for strategy games were board games. Board games were and still are great fun. The bigest problem with board games is that you have to have a buddy or three to play the game with. The second bigest problem is once you get started in some grand strategy, you invariably run out of time and have to set the game aside for a bit and you risk knocking the whole thing over and losing your place.

Computer gaming changed all that and gave you a computer opponent that you could play anytime you wanted. You no longer had to wait for your buddies to all find time to get together... you could play any old time you wanted to and it was good. You could also save the game at various points and come back to it later without the big mess.

It didn't take long however to realize that most of the AI programs in these games actually sucked and you could find ways to beat the machine consistantly. Modern computer games haven't progressed very much either and the AIs have still sucked for the most part. This combined with the wider availability of the internet has made MP so much more appealing to most gamers. Right now humans make better oppenents than computers when it comes to these types of games.

I am hopefull that more developers will put more effort into making better AIs. I like MP well enough but it still takes some effort to get a good game going and to find people you really want to play with.

	04-02-2003 13:07									#16
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The complexity of games have increased considerably since it's humble beginnings, which complicates the programming of AI. Even if computer resources have increased massively, there's not so much of it dedicated to AI as you would hope. As always, graphics takes the first seat.

	04-02-2003 15:40									#17
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins That assumes that humans you face will always be more skillful than an AI.

Again: no it doesn't. Many people play vs. humans not for the level of difficulty they can offer as opposed to AI players, but for the fun of playing against friends or opponents that can feel the sting or pleasure of the game. Online gaming isn't always about challenging yourself with the most capable opponents, but can also be about doing something with people who also enjoy playing against other people.

	04-02-2003 19:59									#18
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Well if you play it MP as soon as it comes out it will also mean that the Level between the Players is more similar.

	04-02-2003 20:42									#19
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Well, you hope so anyways.

	04-02-2003 21:33									#20
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

granted
But i know two guys who are happy i finally present a Game which i have'nt played excessly before :=)

	04-02-2003 22:56									#21
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I'm 54. I've played chess, checkers...and more board wargames with pals than I care to recall. Of course, even with the board games, a lot of play was solo-style because I couldn't always line up an opponent to play against or plain didn't feel like it. Solo play appeals to a lot of people. Same with PC games. I play exclusively solo, against the computer. Some PC AI's are obviously better than others. I probably won't be playing anyone multiplayer anytime soon...perhaps after I retire and have lots of time to get into it.

MOO3's developers' choice to hold off release due to MP bugs, bugged me greatly. But that's just me.

Now, it looks like the team is going to be laid off...so much for patches, eh? The MP guys lucked out this time, I can only hope that the game doesn't require patches later on...MP or SP.

	05-02-2003 17:26									#22
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

MP would require more patching then SP. People playing against eachother in a real competitive environment usually try to leverage every advantage they can find. This results in the discovery of certain units/techs/strategies being overpowered. This often needs patching to 'balance'.

I am personally in the MP camp. More then even being a strategy addict, I am a competition addict, and playing an AI - better or worse is inherantly less exciting. Winning against one is less of an achievment, losing against one is less of a dissapointment. Playing against a human, I want to win. Playing against an AI I don't really care...

and **** it will take years for them to make an AI properly trash talk.

	05-02-2003 17:58									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Jack Frost and **** it will take years for them to make an AI properly trash talk.

All your base are belong to us.

	05-02-2003 18:31									#24
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quote: Originally posted by RolandtheMad All your base are belong to us.

Somebody set up us the bomb.

	06-02-2003 04:19									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Harry Seldon Somebody set up us the bomb.

Make your time.

	06-02-2003 04:45									#26
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins MP is a bandaid for the fact that SP AI's generally suck... no one in their right mind would choose an MP game over a SP game for a TBS, if the AI were as skilled and adaptive as a human opponent, cos they could play when ever, how ever long, choose *how* skilled their opponent was and their opponent would never b1tch about losing... oh... and you could have any number of these opponents.

No way....even if the AI was completely lifelike, I would still prefer to play against a friend, i.e. someone I can interact with and talk about the game with....

	06-02-2003 04:46									#27
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quote: Originally posted by viciouscycle Make your time.

Hello Gentlemen

	06-02-2003 05:36									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Alexfrog Hello Gentlemen

What you say?!?


http://chroniclesofgeorge.nanc.com/base.swf

for the uninformed...

	06-02-2003 13:05									#29
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My problem with MP in empire-building games is that since the idea is to 'win' you don't really take the role as a leader with the interests of your people in mind, therefore trading and empire-building takes a backseat to warring. It kinda sucks playing against humans knowing its not a matter of if but when they're gonna start pouring troops over your border. I mean two Civs spending the last 2 thousands years in a close trading/tech sharing partnership shouldn't be able to attack their neighbours at the drop of a pin. Guess the
'entertainment' slider should really say 'gov. propaganda'

I guess thats why I like roleplaying games more than boardgames, gaming is more fun when you're not in it to win but to play the game.

	06-02-2003 13:36									#30
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I will start with SP games and then move on to MP games.