18-02-2003 09:17									#61
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Corentor Ask yourself this. Let us take 2 games, say Dune 2 and C&C Generals, both comming from the same lineage of the now defunct Westwood studios. Compare the AI in Dune 2 and then in the most recent C&C Generals. Which is more complex? Compare the physics engine of Dune 2 and compare it to Generals. Compare the number and complexity of calls made to graphical drivers in Dune 2 and Generals. Actually compare any 2 games. Simcity and SC4000. Warcraft and Warcraft 3. Hell even Moo and Moo3. You really have no idea what your talking about when say complexity of the code has gone down from yesteryear. Let me guess, you haven't even coded a single line in your life have you....

I think you need to go back and read darcy's post because at no point does he say anything about the complexity of the code. He is talking about the complexity of the game as a whole.

Whether you intended it or not, the tone of your message is rather inflammatory.

	18-02-2003 12:00									#62
	Got spare money?

The original comment I posted was in response to a user saying that old games had less bugs.

Bugs and complexity of code go hand in hand and as one increases, the other does as well. My original use of complex was in reference to code. I would have thought that it was obvious that it was referring to code. What else could I be referring to in the context of discussing bugs?

If darcy was commenting about complexity of code, he is wrong.

If darcy was commenting about complexity of ... whatever, he has no clue as to what is being dicussed.

What is with his touchy feely attitude on this board?

	18-02-2003 12:23									#63
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Well, as the originator of the thread, I'm happy to report that I feel a lot better about this topic since I read the developer interview on ugo.com. It looks like QS is serious about following through on the product, with patches and possibly even an expansion. Great! Looks like my original fears were probably unfounded. I love to be wrong about stuff like this!

	18-02-2003 15:54									#64
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Corentor Ask yourself this. Let us take 2 games, say Dune 2 and C&C Generals, both comming from the same lineage of the now defunct Westwood studios. Compare the AI in Dune 2 and then in the most recent C&C Generals. Which is more complex? Compare the physics engine of Dune 2 and compare it to Generals. Compare the number and complexity of calls made to graphical drivers in Dune 2 and Generals. Actually compare any 2 games. Simcity and SC4000. Warcraft and Warcraft 3. Hell even Moo and Moo3. You really have no idea what your talking about when say complexity of the code has gone down from yesteryear. Let me guess, you haven't even coded a single line in your life have you....

Complexity have very little to do with the number of patch
comeing out. There was no internet in existence when these early games came out for downloading patches so they have to make sure each games was complete and ready to play. I got than MOM(master of magic ) patch send to me as when I read the Stragic Guide it was different from what the game have, it was sent on 2 3 1/2 disks. To many companies rush than game out, at least with MOO3 they are takeing some extras time to release than game that will have lest bugs in it.

	18-02-2003 18:32									#65
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Corentor The original comment I posted was in response to a user saying that old games had less bugs. Bugs and complexity of code go hand in hand and as one increases, the other does as well. My original use of complex was in reference to code. I would have thought that it was obvious that it was referring to code. What else could I be referring to in the context of discussing bugs? If darcy was commenting about complexity of code, he is wrong. If darcy was commenting about complexity of ... whatever, he has no clue as to what is being dicussed. What is with his touchy feely attitude on this board?

If your original comment was toward another user in regards to the complexity/size/bugs issue then you should have quoted that user in your response instead of darcy. Your argument that more code equals more bugs is perfectly valid and I completely agree with you. Modern games have much more code than older games... you're right on the money.

What darcy said was that more features do not equate to complexity in the overall game. You quoted darcy in your response and in the last two parts of your response you directly accused him of not knowing what he is talking about. Arguing a point is one thing. Attacking somebody in a post is another.

I think what we have here is failure to communicate. The moral of this story is: be specific.

Now, back to the thread... I think a lot of older games would have been patched had that option been available at the time. I remember games crashing on me for no apparent reason all the time and games with broken features.

	18-02-2003 19:24									#66
	Increase Your PM Length

Ummmm... you're all completely missing the point.

The number of bugs in todays games has very little to do with the complexity of AI algorithms, or the physics engine, or anything else to do with the game itself. OR to do with some bizarre rose-tinted idea that 'it were all better in t'old days'. Its all to do with the vastly complex and diverse systems that modern games have to run on.

In the 'good old days' your game ran in MS-DOS. A single threaded operating system. No other applications were running at the same time that you ran your game. If you were lucky you had a sound card which was 'default' enough to be supported - (if not - you just did without sound!!!).

Your game ran in standard VGA - a standard so common that all graphics cards supported it directly in hardware - which was handy, as if you wanted anything better than VGA there was no standardisation in graphics drivers (apart from VESA - and how many people bought games which 'require a VESA compliant SVGA card' for their SVGA mode - and thats just what their card claimed to be - yet it still didnt work?).

Nowadays we have multiple versions of windows with about 10 bazillion different combinations of sound cards, graphics cards, mouse, CPU, memory, motherboard chipsets, CD-ROM, DVD-ROM, bios, DirectX version, Windows version, filesystem, anti-virus, firewalls, etc etc etc.

THIS is why games today have so many bugs. Frankly its a miracle anyone still develops for the PC at all - it is SO much extra work. Is it just a coincidence that console games have about a million times fewer bugs in them? Why do you *think* that so many developers are switching to consoles????

Last edited by Daveybaby on 18-02-2003 at 19:30

	18-02-2003 20:08									#67
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Daveybaby Ummmm... you're all completely missing the point. The number of bugs in todays games has very little to do with the complexity of AI algorithms, or the physics engine, or anything else to do with the game itself. OR to do with some bizarre rose-tinted idea that 'it were all better in t'old days'.

actually it does. How many times have you run into, little but exceptionally annoying bugs like SC 4000's recent bug were a particular tileset wouldn't spawn, or little things like dupe hacks in Diablo.

Those aren't machine configuration driven erros.

quote: Originally posted by Daveybaby Nowadays we have multiple versions of windows with about 10 bazillion different combinations of sound cards, graphics cards, mouse, CPU, memory, motherboard chipsets, CD-ROM, DVD-ROM, bios, DirectX version, Windows version, filesystem, anti-virus, firewalls, etc etc etc.

Thats true too, but that is also some of what I was reffering to. Anyone who owns an ATI card can probably attest with me that some screwed up stuff happens with everyone's latest and greatest graphics engine.

	18-02-2003 20:11									#68
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by CharlesBHoff There was no internet in existence when these early games came out for downloading patches so they have to make sure each games was complete and ready to play.

This is only a small factor in the fact why games have so many bugs nowadays.

	18-02-2003 20:42									#69
	Put an end to popups!

after all this time, there better not be as much as one tiny little critter (bug) running loose in the game.


just kidding! heh

	18-02-2003 21:19									#70
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Corentor actually it does. How many times have you run into, little but exceptionally annoying bugs like SC 4000's recent bug were a particular tileset wouldn't spawn, or little things like dupe hacks in Diablo. Those aren't machine configuration driven erros.

Okay... how many times have you seen bugs like that that affect *everybody*? Its a vastly smaller proportion of bugs - most bugs in bug lists are prefaced with the words 'some users'.

Anyhow I'm not saying that all of the bugs nowadays are down to machine configurations... just that thats the reason that there are disproportionately so many compared to the 'good old days'. We used to get bugs then and we get them now - but there are just so many more opportunities to screw up when you cant predict the exact system your game will be running on.

Oh... and w.r.t. Diablo : I think online MP gaming has its added its own set of problems. Exploits can become game breakers in MP, when in the old days we only had SP. The same sort of problems were just as common in games back then (e.g. balance issues, minor bugs which can be exploited to gain an advantage) - but they didnt have such a drastic impact in SP as they do in MP.

quote: Originally posted by Corentor Thats true too, but that is also some of what I was reffering to. Anyone who owns an ATI card can probably attest with me that some screwed up stuff happens with everyone's latest and greatest graphics engine.

So are you agreeing with me or disagreeing with me?

The latest and greatest graphics engines dont (generally) screw up on consoles. Thus its not a function of game complexity - its a function of platform complexity.

Heh, anyway ATI are pretty good these days... its NVidia who seem to have inherited the 'pain in the arse to get working' crown of late.

	19-02-2003 03:47									#71
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by vee4473 after all this time, there better not be as much as one tiny little critter (bug) running loose in the game. just kidding! heh

Except a Klackon. Or Tachidi.

	19-02-2003 05:33									#72
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Or a parasitic Ithkul.

	19-02-2003 12:39									#73
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Also computer games was not the big bussien it is today, most of then where start by people who where computer programing and computer hacker. Plus before the internet became what it is today it was very cost for any computer compancy to release patches on than regurate base so they where total want to have no bug in their programs. I only got on the internet in 2001 for the first time.
Plus I think the computer game industry will come up with
than 10 year standard which will last 10 year at least without any major change to save the industry and make it easyer for people who arenot rich keep than up to date computer longer. The computer industry would die at the start if they have the incomp software and hardware problun we have to day.
Plus than the old day computer game companies have to be able to manufactor games to 5 or 6 different computer system and most companies cannot handle the two computer system we have today MAC and MS window.