05-02-2003 08:10									#1
	Proposal for Constitution Support Apolyton

Article I: Executive Branch
A. The Directory
i.Three Citizens shall constitute the Directory.
ii. Shall have the autority to play the game.
iii. Can take any action within the law; however, they must follow legal minister orders.
iv. The Directory may conduct out of game negotiations. Any deal reached is subject to approval by the Minister of Foreign Affairs.
B. Minister of Defence
i. Is responsible for the movement and engagment of combat units.
ii. Is responsible for choosing which units to upgrade.
C. Minister of Labor
i. Is responsible for the movement and usage of all workers and settlers.
ii. Is responsible for Science\Luxury Sliders, and direction of science research.
iii. Manages all city citizens.
D. Minister of the Interior
i. Is responsible for the operations Budget.
ii. May draw boundaries and regions within the nation and appoint governors over those regions who can recommend to the Domestic Minister and his advisors how to best manage those regions.
iii. Manages all city build queues.
iv. May rush any project, though this is subject to approval by the Senate.
v. May create or alter any system for naming all cities, provinces, geographic features, and so forth.
E. Minister of Foreign Affairs.
i. Has sole power over exchanges and trade agreements with other nations.
ii. May spend gold to establish embassies, but only after the approval of either the Minister of the Interior or the Senate.
iii. May spend gold on Espionage, but only after the approval of either the President or Senate.
iv. May enter into Right of Passage Agreements, but only after the approval of either the Senate or Minister of Defence.
v. Negotiates peace agreements, but only after the approval of either the Senate or Minister of Defence.
vi. Any trade, exchange, or gift that involves giving away workers must be approved by either the Minister of Labor or the Senate.
vii. Any trade, exchange, or gift that involves giving away cities must be approved by the Senate.
viii. May enter into any Military Alliance or Mutual Protection Pact, but only with prior approval by the Senate.
ix. Any trade, exchange, or gift that involves giving away gold must be approved by the Minister of the Interior.
x. May conduct out of game negotiations, or appoint ambassadors to do so. Any deal reached must be approved by the Directory.

F. Deputy Ministers
i. Any citizen may serve as a Deputy Minister to an elected Minister or President.
ii. One Deputy Minister per elected Minister may be given the title of Vice Minister. A Vice Minister has the full power and authority of the Minister should the Minister be unable to perform his duties.
iii. A citizen may serve as a deputy minister for more than one Minister. However, a citizen may not be Vice Minister for more than one Elected Official.

Article II: The High Council
A. The Council has the power to rule upon contested disputes involving legal interpretations; validity of polls and elections; violations of the Constitution, law, or Executive orders; and any other dispute of national importance.
i. The Council shall select a “First Consul” who will be responsible for ensuring that a timely report is published for each decision made by the Court.
ii. The First Consul shall ensure that a timely report is published and make sure that the decision is archived.
iii. The report shall communicate the rationale behind the decision.
iv. Failure to publish the report is grounds for an appeal.
v. The First Consul will also preside over any hearing before the Court.
B. The Council shall come together to rule on any issue that is lawfully before it.
i. The Council cannot act on any issue until a non-judicial citizen brings forth an Issue to the Council. Issues to the Council should be posted publicly and must involve a dispute that the Council is empowered to rule upon.
ii. The Court shall decide on its own what type of hearing it will have. It may make its own rules of procedure and enforce them upon citizens who are before the Court.
iii. A Quorum of at least 3 Consuls must be involved in any ruling that is made. Should the Council be tied about how to rule on an issue, any non-voting Consul is to then review the case and vote.
iv. All rulings are immediately official and final until overturned by a subsequent appeal.
v. Appeals may be granted if there are grounds to believe that an error in the application of the law has been made. Any citizen may make an application for an appeal. If at least 3 Consuls agree to hear the appeal, a new hearing will be created to examine the issue.
vi. An injunction may be issued by vote of three Consuls preventing the Directory from taking any one course of action.

Article III: Impeachment
A. Any Consul, Director, or Minister may be impeached by a majority vote of the Senate.
i. For Consuls or Directors, a vote of no-confidence is held, and the person initiating the poll may select a replacement, to be named in the first post of the poll.
ii. For Ministers who are impeached, the Directory chooses a successor.

Article IV: Elections
A. Elections for the High Council and Directory shall be held every month.
i. The elections shall rotate so that one election for High Council shall be held a month after the elections for the Directory.
ii. The first set of elected councils shall hold office for two months in order to accomodate this.
B. Elections for Ministers shall be held every month.
C. All Citizens are eligible to vote.

	05-02-2003 08:15									#2
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Of course, its not complete, missing a Senate Article for example. However, the substance should get some debate here.

Should there by 3 or 5 Consuls?
Does the election system work?
Anything Else?

	05-02-2003 23:39									#3
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I liked most of this!
- Quite democratic , and not too bueraucartic.


Hmm, elections every month? IMO this takes a lot of extra efforts, than if we hold them every 2 months or so.
And a Senate can without problem consist of all players.


Also we need a law about appointing other official positions.
In that case I would disagree to use the CIV3DG principle where the president appoints whomever he likes, as in the USA system. It's a bit quasi-democratic, and the applicants could then recieve an unfair treatment. As IRL, we could easily put toghether a constituted commitee consisting of many of us, for the task of handling personell issues. (or just leave out the appointing, and only do elections?)

Last edited by ThePlagueRat on 05-02-2003 at 23:47

	05-02-2003 23:59									#4
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A month is good. In the SPDG, we have had a number of officials that had to retire in the middle of their term due to RL reasons, so two months certainly is too much. Besides, a commitment for two months as part of being elected into an office would scare most people, which is perfectly understandable. I wouldn't want to commit to two months ahead either.

	06-02-2003 04:53									#5
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Yes, I beleive that the Senate should be simply everyone who plays. I'm a little skeptical of 2 month terms, for the same reasons Shiber stated.

	06-02-2003 05:49									#6
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I think Thud has done an excellent job on this, but I do have two alternate ideas ... I just haven't had the time this week to prepare them because I've been swamped at work.

Idea 1) Much shorter "Constitution" that elects three Consuls, elects advisors to the Consuls (the ministers), and gives everyone the power to make laws. Consuls shall follow the instructions of the minsters unless there are changed circumstances. Consuls and ministers can be removed at any time by a "no-confidence" vote.

Idea 2) Straight Republic. No Constitution. We are all Senators and we elect Consuls to serve the Republic as they choose. We make laws as we need, remove officials when they let us down, and create laws and official advisors only as necessary.

--Togas

	06-02-2003 06:12									#7
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I am quite interested in Toga's idea 2. I'm not sure if it won't end up being just more trouble than its worth, though.

	06-02-2003 07:11									#8
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Minister of Labor manages city citizens. Minister of Interior manages city build queues. In my games these two actions go together. I manage my citizens according to various needs of the city including what it is building. The separation can make things more interesting, but probably not as efficient.

	06-02-2003 07:18									#9
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Eh, i'm not so sure I like idea 2. I think it could become more trouble than it's worth. I think we'd be able to play strongest with what we know and working within some framework, no matter how simple it would be.

	06-02-2003 11:22									#10
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I'm having some problems with the ministers' duties. I just don't think the whole scheme is optimal. Let's see:

quote: C. Minister of Labor i. Is responsible for the movement and usage of all workers and settlers. ii. Is responsible for Science\Luxury Sliders, and direction of science research. iii. Manages all city citizens. D. Minister of the Interior i. Is responsible for the operations Budget. ii. May draw boundaries and regions within the nation and appoint governors over those regions who can recommend to the Domestic Minister and his advisors how to best manage those regions. iii. Manages all city build queues. iv. May rush any project, though this is subject to approval by the Senate. v. May create or alter any system for naming all cities, provinces, geographic features, and so forth.

My proposal:

Minister of Interior and Development
i. Manages all cities, their production queues and their citizens.
ii. Is responsible for the movement and usage of all workers and settlers.
iii. May draw boundaries and regions within the nation and appoint governors over those regions who can recommend to the Domestic Minister and his advisors how to best manage those regions.
iv. May rush any project, though this is subject to approval by the Senate.

(The Minister of Labor could become a deputy minister later in the game, responsible with the management of all settlers and workers).

Minister of Economy and Science
i. Is responsible for managing the Science\Luxury Sliders
ii. Is responsible for planning direction of science research.
iii. Is responsible for the operations Budget.
iv. Is responsible for overviewing trade trities and proposing new ones to the Minister of Foereign Affairs when they become available

	06-02-2003 12:28									#11
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quote: Minister of Interior and Development i. Manages all cities, their production queues and their citizens. ii. Is responsible for the movement and usage of all workers and settlers. iii. May draw boundaries and regions within the nation and appoint governors over those regions who can recommend to the Domestic Minister and his advisors how to best manage those regions. iv. May rush any project, though this is subject to approval by the Senate. (The Minister of Labor could become a deputy minister later in the game, responsible with the management of all settlers and workers). Minister of Economy and Science i. Is responsible for managing the Science\Luxury Sliders ii. Is responsible for planning direction of science research. iii. Is responsible for the operations Budget. iv. Is responsible for overviewing trade trities and proposing new ones to the Minister of Foereign Affairs when they become available

I would agree with Tiberius' proposals. It makes more sense to have all production/labor related items under one office, and all monetary matters under another. Science and the budget are intrinsically tied together, and should be managed by the same person, as I see it.

	07-02-2003 00:44									#12
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I myself considered this system for the domestic ministers, but went with what I have now because I feel that your position of Economy and Science basically doesn't do enough to justify an elected position. On the other hand, the poor Minister of Interior and Development has to take charge of all of the workers and all of the build queues, which is, I think, way too much for anyone to do on the time scales we're talking about. That's why I seperated it into my somewhat awkward system, because we'll be able to get orders typed up and out the door on time my way.

	07-02-2003 00:52									#13
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I know this may sound funny coming from me, but what this team doesn't need is a complicated government scheme and a lot of bureaucracy. I really enjoy the subtleties and complexities of the government and system we've created in the SPDG, but this game cannot afford to be delayed while we argue about the meanings of laws, impeach people, and hold trials to find actions and rules Unconstitutional. We do not have the luxury of being able to pause the game for days to a week to resolve problems. We must accept that someone has the "final say" and if we don't like their decisions, we use a simple process to vote a replacement.

If we don't use a simple "Republic" sort of style we should use the Directory style that Thud proposes, with some minor changes:

Clearly spell out what all the Ministers ADVISE on, but make it clear that the final decision remains with the Directory -- the guys who have to play the game. (If people don't like it when a Director ignores the orders of a Minister, and the Director cannot give a good reason why he changed them, then people should vote NO CONFIDENCE in him and replace him with someone with more sense).

Of course, we should make it clear that Directors should only ignore orders when there is a clear reason to do so ... some sort of changed circumstances or a conflict between different ministers' orders.

Allow our Directors to have the "Final Say" in all matters. If we don't like their decisions, we vote 'em out and replace them. This gives the members the ultimate check on our leaders, and gives our leaders the power and responsibility to play this game in the best possible mannor.

Let us not make lots of rules and restrictions on our Directors. Let's not require them to get permission from X number of people or make them poll us first. If our Directors are the right sort of people (and we picked them, so they should be) they will listen to our discussions, ask for advice, and carefully weigh decisions before making them.

Let's not REQUIRE monthly elections, as it will take time away from our focus on the game to have our leaders trying to get re-elected every month. We should stick with a simple "No-confidence" system and allow director retirement as well.

--Togas

	07-02-2003 01:18									#14
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I like what you're proposing, Togas. It is quite hierachical, yet democratic. Hierarchical in the sense that decisions are made by the Directors, as they should be, since they are playing the game, and that is not during a turnchat. Democratic, because every citizen has the opportunity to elect the leaders.

Let's replace Directors by Consuls, as in Ancient Rome.

	07-02-2003 01:52									#15
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(edit: typos fixed; new ideas added)

Combining Thud's Article I, Togas' Idea 1, and some other input, I get:

____________________ The Constitution ____________________

. The Consuls
i.Three Citizens shall be appointed as Consuls.
ii. The Consuls have the authority to play the game.
iii. The Consuls have the authority to make final game decisions, but must act within the boundaries of the law.
iv. The Consuls should follow legal minister orders unless forced by unforseen circumstances.
v. One Consul shall be appointed President.

B. The President
i. The President leads the Consuls.
ii. The President shall act as an offical spokesperson for the Consuls.

C. Minister of Defense
i. One Citizen shall be appointed as Minister of Defense.
ii. The Minister of Defense advises on the movement and engagment of combat and scouting units.
iii. The Minister of Defense advises on the upgrading of units.

D. Minister of the Interior
i. One Citizen shall be appointed as Minister of the Interior.
ii. The Minister of the Interior advises on the movement and usage of all workers and settlers.
ii. The Minister of the Interior advises on the Science and Luxury Sliders, the treasury, and the direction of science research.
iii. The Minister of the Interior advises on the management of all city citizens.
iv. The Minister of the Interior may draw boundaries and regions within the nation and appoint governors over those regions.
v. The Minister of the Interior advises on the management of all city build queues, including the rushing of projects.
vi. The Minister of the Interior may create or alter any system for naming all cities, provinces, geographic features, and so forth.

E. Minister of Foreign Affairs
i. One Citizen shall be appointed as Minister of Foreign Affairs.
ii. The Minister of Foreign Affairs gives lead to diplomatic affairs with other nations. He may appoint ambassadors to assist him.
iii. The Minister of Foreign Affairs advises on the establishment of Embassies.
iv. The Minister of Foreign Affairs advises on Espionage affairs.
v. The Minister of Foreign Affairs advises on the engagements of Treaties with other nations.

F. Minister of Information
i. One Citizen shall be appointed as Minister of Information.
ii. The Minister of Information is responsible for the timely availability of game-related information to the People.

G. Other
i. All Ministers should base their advice on the will of the People.
ii. All Ministers and Consuls should be different persons.

Last edited by BigFurryMonster on 07-02-2003 at 02:08

	07-02-2003 02:00									#16
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Good, a Consul(director) system might work smoothly and fine in-game. And for long term strategic decisions, and interteam diplomacy, etc. there will be a lot of planning required and several Ministers(advisors) would naturally be involved. Therefore, the constitution should contain one mandatory task for the Ministers.


§proposal: Ministers are responsible for doing his planning with the board(all of us), which includes posting discussions, and then official polls in order to decide the right paths for our civilization.


This prop. is to ensure that medium/long term strategies is being tailored well and developed properly by all of us, and we can show that we Apolytoners are the best...
If a minister do not follow this trend, my no-con vote is simply imminent. Just a simple task. Not complicated, yet democratic.

	07-02-2003 03:09									#17
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BFM, the revised Constitution is very good. You'll just want to include something about No-Confidence votes and also about how we'll handle retirement by any elected official.

--Togas

	07-02-2003 03:18									#18
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hi ,

elections ;

one month is a bit short for certain goals , two months is to long , ...

so why not six weeks , ....

have a nice day

	07-02-2003 03:37									#19
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I've come to agree with removal polls; don't hold regular elections (except for the start of the game), just wait for a removal poll or the minister's resignation.

	07-02-2003 03:51									#20
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteBandit Eh, i'm not so sure I like idea 2. I think it could become more trouble than it's worth. I think we'd be able to play strongest with what we know and working within some framework, no matter how simple it would be.

This idea is working very well in the RP team.

	07-02-2003 04:03									#21
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BFM, I think that it is necesary to have something to prevent the Directors from doing irreversable harm, beyond the threat of no confidence votes. Thus, either requiring them to follow written Minister orders (if the minister doens't submit them, they can do whatever) or my three Consuls with the power to order the Directory not to do something specific.

We really ought to have elections. It might not be the most effective, but it more easily lets diverse people get involved, and, lets face it, its not really a democracy game without the elections.

If we are to go with the Sumpreme Consul system, one Domestic Minister will be fine.

Oh, I like the Minister of Information. I tried to create it in the SPDG a while back, but the amendment flopped.

	07-02-2003 04:14									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Thud We really ought to have elections. It might not be the most effective, but it more easily lets diverse people get involved, and, lets face it, its not really a democracy game without the elections.

But why? People can still have access to the save to review it by theirselves. They can still write in the forums expressing their opinions and debating about them. An opinion that the consuls (I like this name) should take in account if they want to stay in charge. I don't think that the people participating in that game really want to be the ones who move that unit or that other. We can do it in our private SP or MP games. What is really important is being part of the comunity participating in it, reading the participations from the other members of the team... I don't really care if I'm the one loading the save as long as I feel I'm part of the whole. And if I feel like I am not, then I will call for a no-con vote!!!

	07-02-2003 06:19									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Thud We really ought to have elections. It might not be the most effective, but it more easily lets diverse people get involved, and, lets face it, its not really a democracy game without the elections.

Fine. You can call a No-Con vote once a month if you wish. Just be sure to name who your replacement is.

Remember, a No-Con vote should be able to be called on any government official. I think this should include Regional Governers when we are big enough to have Regions.

	07-02-2003 06:28									#24
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Fine, if No-Con's stretch to Ministers, I'm all for it. I'll write up a final draft for the Constitution tonight. I want to get it posted ASAP, as we have to leave time for ratification and initial elections. Parameters are expected today, and the game might begin by next weekend.

Last edited by Thud on 07-02-2003 at 06:52

	07-02-2003 06:50									#25
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A. The Consuls
i.Three Citizens shall be elected as Consuls.
a. Initial elections will occur upon ratification of this Constitution.
b. There will be an opportunity to nominate the Consuls, and then an election, where the 3 people with the most manual ballots are chosen as Consuls.
ii. The Consuls have the authority to play the game.
iii. The Consuls have the authority to make final game decisions, but must act within the boundaries of the law.
iv. The Consuls should follow legal minister orders unless forced by unforseen circumstances.
v. One Consul shall be appointed President.
vi. The Consuls have the power to rule on senatorial disputes in a manner they see fit.
vii. Consuls may only be removed from office by a vote of No-Confidence.
viii. The Consuls appoint Ministers.

B. The President
i. The President leads the Consuls.
ii. The President shall act as an official spokesperson for the Consuls.
iii. The President will be chosen by agreement of the Consuls, in a manner they see fit.

C. Minister of Defense
i. One Citizen shall be appointed as Minister of Defense.
ii. The Minister of Defense advises on the movement and engagement of combat and scouting units.
iii. The Minister of Defense advises on the upgrading of units.

D. Minister of the Interior
i. One Citizen shall be appointed as Minister of the Interior.
ii. The Minister of the Interior advises on the movement and usage of all workers and settlers.
ii. The Minister of the Interior advises on the Science and Luxury Sliders, the treasury, and the direction of science research.
iii. The Minister of the Interior advises on the management of all city citizens.
iv. The Minister of the Interior may draw boundaries and regions within the nation and appoint governors over those regions.
v. The Minister of the Interior advises on the management of all city build queues, including the rushing of projects.
vi. The Minister of the Interior may create or alter any system for naming all cities, provinces, geographic features, and so forth.

E. Minister of Foreign Affairs
i. One Citizen shall be appointed as Minister of Foreign Affairs.
ii. The Minister of Foreign Affairs gives lead to diplomatic affairs with other nations. He may appoint ambassadors to assist him.
iii. The Minister of Foreign Affairs advises on the establishment of Embassies.
iv. The Minister of Foreign Affairs advises on Espionage affairs.
v. The Minister of Foreign Affairs advises on the engagements of Treaties with other nations.

F. Minister of Information
i. One Citizen shall be appointed as Minister of Information.
ii. The Minister of Information is responsible for the timely availability of game-related information to the People.

G. Senatorial Procedure
i.. All members of the team who are not Consuls are Senators.
ii. The Senate has the power to create law, which the Consuls must follow.
a. A Bill must be proposed by a Senator, and clearly state the purpose in the first post, and have the following options for a poll: yea or nay.
b. The Bill must be passed by a simple majority, 50% plus 1, to become a law.
c. All bills must be open for at least 48 hours.
iii. The Senate has the power to take a vote of No-Confidence.
a. Any Senator may propose a NoCon vote.
b. The Senator must state the person he is intending to remove from office, and the person he intends to replace him with, in the first post.
c. A vote must have the three options of yea or nay.
d. A vote must be open for at least 36 hours.
e. A vote of No-Confidence that passes will take effect immediately.
f. A vote will pass with a simple majority, 50% plus 1.
g. Any Consul, Minister, or official appointed by the Consulate is subject to a vote of No-Confidence.

This is what I intend to post for ratification. Comments, suggestions, questions, objections?

	07-02-2003 06:57									#26
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I went with Consuls, and without my High Council, instead providing for Senate laws. Besides with a name like Consul, I'll be able to use Napoleon as my avatar. (almost to 500... must... spam...)

	07-02-2003 09:41									#27
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Why not call them Triumvirs if they are going to be three?

	07-02-2003 11:10									#28
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A slight mistake--

G. iii. c. reads:
A vote must have the three options of yea or nay.

I think you wanted abstain in there or simply have two options.

hehehehe

PS- I'll try to write this up with tabs...

	07-02-2003 12:12									#29
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A. The Consuls

1. Three Citizens shall be elected as Consuls.
   a. Initial elections will occur upon ratification of this Constitution.
   b. There will be an opportunity to nominate the Consuls, and then an election, where the 3 people with the most manual ballots are chosen as Consuls.
   
2. The Consuls have the authority to play the game.
   
3. The Consuls have the authority to make final game decisions, but must act within the boundaries of the law.
   
4. The Consuls should follow legal minister orders unless forced by unforseen circumstances.
   
5. One Consul shall be appointed President.
   
6. The Consuls have the power to rule on senatorial disputes in a manner they see fit.
   
7. Consuls may only be removed from office by a vote of No-Confidence.
   
8. The Consuls appoint Ministers.

	07-02-2003 13:41									#30
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hi ,

, this starts to be something

no matter what , we should keep it simple and work as a

Together
Everyone
Achieves
More

, .......

have a nice day