05-02-2003 09:33									#1
	Team Scores Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

code:

Year
GS
ND
GW
RP
VC
LI
Us
3000
45
55
50
49
49
46
49
2950
46
57
52
51
50
47
50
2900
47
59
53
53
51
48
53
2850
49
60
54
55
53
49
55
2800
51
62
56
57
54
49
57
2750
53
63
57
59
55
50
58
2710
55
64
58
60
56
50
60
2670
56
65
59
62
57
51
62
2630
58
66
60
63
58
52
63
2590
59
68
60
64
58
52
65
2550
60
70
61
66
59
53
66
2510
62
72
62
67
60
55
68
2470
63
73
63
68
61
56
70
2430
64
75
64
69
62
57
72
2390
65
76
65
70
62
58
74
2350
66
77
65
71
63
59
76
2310
67
79
66
73
63
60
77
2270
68
80
67
75
64
61
80
2230
70
81
68
77
64
62
82
2190
71
82
68
78
65
63
85
2150
73
84
69
80
65
64
87
2110
74
85
70
81
65
65
89
2070
75
86
70
82
66
65
91
2030
76
87
71
84
66
66
93
1990
78
88
71
85
67
67
95
1950
80
89
72
87
68
68
97
1910
82
91
72
89
69
68
99
1870
84
93
73
90
70
69
102
1830
85
95
74
92
71
69
104
1790
87
96
75
93
72
70
106
1750
88
98
76
95
73
71
109
1725
90
100
78
96
74
72
111
1700
92
101
80
98
75
73
113
1675
94
103
81
100
76
73
115
1650
96
104
83
103
77
74
117
1625
98
106
85
106
77
74
119
1600
100
107
88
109
78
75
121
1575
102
109
90
112
80
74
123
1550
104
111
92
114
81
73
125
1525
106
113
93
117
83
72
126
1500
107
114
95
120
84
72
128
1475
109
117
97
122
85
71
130
1450
111
119
99
125
87
70
133
1425
114
121
101
127
88
70
135
1400
116
123
103
130
90
0
137
1375
118
125
105
132
92
0
139
1350
120
127
107
134
94
0
141
1325
123
129
109
137
95
0
143
1300
125
131
111
139
97
0
145
1275
127
134
113
141
99
0
148
1250
130
137
115
144
101
0
150
1225
132
140
117
146
102
0
152
1200
135
142
119
149
104
0
154
1175
137
145
120
151
106
0
156
1150
140
148
122
153
107
0
158
1125
142
150
123
155
109
0
160
1100
145
153
125
158
110
0
163
1075
148
155
127
161
112
0
165
1050
150
158
130
164
114
0
167
1025
153
162
132
167
116
0
169
1000
156
165
135
170
118
0
171
975
159
167
138
172
119
0
174
950
163
171
141
175
121
0
176
925
166
174
144
178
122
0
178


900
169
177
147
180
124
0
181


875
172
181
150
183
126
0
184


850
175
184
153
186
127
0
187


825
179
187
156
189
129
0
190


800
183
191
159
192
131
0
193


775
187
194
162
195
132
0
196


750
191
197
164
198
134
0
199


730
195
200
167
201
136
0
202


710
200
203
170
203
137
0
205


690
205
206
173
206
139
0
209


670
209
209
176
209
140
0
212

Last edited by Sharpe on 18-04-2003 at 08:08

	05-02-2003 09:53									#2
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Does anyone know what the scores are based on?

	05-02-2003 10:30									#3
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City pop (the happier a pop unit, the more valuable IIRC) & territory.

Since we seem to have the most cities, our top standing makes sense.

	07-02-2003 08:12									#4
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Looks like Gathering Storm, RolePlayers and New Demogyptica are emerging as our main rivals so far. They also seem to be the only ones nearly keeping pace with our rise in scores in the past 10 turns.

Scores updated to 1870 bc now.

	10-02-2003 05:28									#5
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Scores updated to 1790 bc now.

	18-02-2003 07:47									#6
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Scores updated to 1675 bc

Analysis:

Lux is in REAL trouble if the change in their score indicates much - they have only gained 1 point in the past 3 turns and 4 points in the past 7 turns. Maybe there is something to that talk about Lux being exterminated !!

(In comparison, we have gained 4 points in the past 3 turns and 16 points in the last 7 turns)

We are still gaining points faster than everyone else, but GS, ND and RP points are rising almost as fast as us.

	19-02-2003 07:44									#7
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Hmm, well in the 1650bc turn, someone else (RP in this case) grew faster than we did!!

First time that has happened since the 2550bc turn...

	21-02-2003 01:48									#8
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Updated

The RP are growing fast!

Sharpe, do you have html on? Your post should work now and it isn't Damn.

	21-02-2003 02:16									#9
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Hmm... ND and RP are growing pretty equally... GoW will probably be a deciding factor in whichever side comes out on top in any upcoming wars...

And I really want to know what's going on with Vox... they aren't growing much at all.

	21-02-2003 11:10									#10
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Yeah, that's interesting. Their land must not be very good. Apparently technologically they are advanced. Maybe their teritorry is not too big or they didn't REX. They have almost the same points as the Luxes, who are close to being exterminated. I just don't get it.

	21-02-2003 15:11									#11
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If they have a small landmass, they will be anxious to settle on our land. Also since they are not buiding settlers, they would be building up an army.

Hmmm...I'm I just being paranoid?

	21-02-2003 15:43									#12
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Yes

Or, if they're building an army, it is for the GS, which I don't mind

	22-02-2003 21:25									#13
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Scores updated to 1600 bc

RP is now really gaining on us - GS and ND are now keeping pace with us. Looks like territorial wise and in number of cities they have at least caught up with us...

Time to expand soon again I think (T minus 10 turns?)

	24-02-2003 08:15									#14
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Updated to 1550 bc save

Our lead remained the same for this turn anyway - though Reliant is closing - oops I meant RP is still closing the gap.

	25-02-2003 08:08									#15
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Updated to 1525bc save

Uh oh, we only grew one point in the 1525bc turn - first time that we grew only 1 point since the 2310bc turn

Worse yet RP grew 3 points again - gap between the two of us is only 9 points.

	25-02-2003 11:05									#16
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This is because the score is an average score of all the turns until now and we didn't expand in the last turns, thus our teritorry points didn't grow at all. We are still gaining points due to the increased population.

	25-02-2003 11:30									#17
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Yeah, guys, take the score with a grain of salt. It says absolutely nothing about how well a civ is doing in the early stages of the game, since it reflects only territory and population (+culture? not sure). It does not reflect anything else, like infrastructure, possible future expansion etc... so do not panick seeing us "losing" the lead. Actually, losing the lead altogether for a moment would be a good thing, since we would be getting less attention from other teams, flying even "lower" under the radar.

Do not get mislead by the score! The less others think of us, the better our chances to succeed with our plan.

	25-02-2003 12:10									#18
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack The less others think of us, the better our chances to succeed with our plan.

You seem to have a very close relation with your plan, Radek

Just kidding, I know it is our plan and it is a good one. After all, how else would we prove that we are builders, if not by building WONDERS of the World? Amnd when these wonders are useful too, it means that we are on the right track

	25-02-2003 13:06									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius You seem to have a very close relation with your plan, Radek

Well, yes, I do, even if it is not mine anymore... I wanted The Great Lighthouse as the other edge first... But it's now useless, so I have had to adopt "your" Pyramids...

I feel so strongly about the plan, because if we succeed, it will - IMHO - make such a HUGE difference that we will be likely to never have to care about others again... just building like mad. And if we fail, we would still not lose that much, we would basically just remain in the position we are now. Even without Pyramids, we should be able to settle our landmass in a reasonable time, plus we will get some of the missing techs from Luxes. So for me, it is an opportunity of such a low risk and high yield that I would terribly regret missing it in favour of any short term goals.

Don't get me wrong, I seriously consider every new development... pondering about if it is still wise to stick to O2E. But so far, nothing made me change my mind... I still believe we should go for it. RPers spotting our coastal waters was actually very helpful, because we were able to rule out the GLh and recognize the Pyramids, which are admittedly a wonder much more useful, as the way to go. If RPers do not have Map Making (-> no Galleys), they are no threat to us.

Then the Lux thing... in fact, I believe that this development helps us even further, lowering the risk involved, providing sort of a backup plan to use in case we miss on the Great Library (replacing it with Pyramids and scratching the other wonder or going for something less spectacular like Oracle...). Plus, we do not need to settle Legos Minor, while at the same time gaining the benefit of a relatively trustworthy neighbour...

Speaking of this "relative trustworthiness", let me explain something. Having had several lengthy chats with Trip, I guess I have been able to get some sort of a feeling about this guy. Surprisingly, he is not really cocky, if you speak directly to him. His cockiness as seen in the forums is probably just a rather weird way of having fun. He has been very reasonable and open to me, while never becoming toadyish.

That said, I seldom believe such feelings. I usually ask about incentives, about reasons, about what the other person can gain by doing this or that... and when I ask what could Trip get by backstabbing us in the future?, the answer is surprisingly... almost nothing! He is a proud person, that's correct, and he longs for being recognized (just see his efforts to become first a Consul then the SMC in the ISDG). But to allow another team to virtually "save" him, then backstabbing to make his way to the ultimate victory, would do just the opposite - he would be held in scorn, since winning in this way may be used only to prove your immorality and ruthlessness, but not your Civ3 skills. He could always be silenced by simply saying "if they hadn't saved you before, you sucker, you would never ever had a chance..."

That said, the only exception would be if we bleed him dry for providing the refuge - then, it might be sort of "justifiable" to be less than extremely grateful. But if we are generous, I am strongly convinced we will never have to worry about Luxes on Legos Minor, as the only thing that could gain Trip glory, respect, and recognition, would be a triumphal return to the Bob continent, paying back his "debts" with ND there.

And that, folks, is something we would really like to happen, won't we?

	25-02-2003 21:11									#20
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We have flat lined on the score, but that is temporary.

Meanwhile, RP is skyrocketing. Likely to do with territorial expansion. I tracking the scores as compared to the Average Turn Score. They are making a very impressive climb, at the expense of LI.

I also have a lot of confidence in Double Edge. Naturally, the first edge (GLib) is key. I'm sure a couple of other teams are eyeing this wonder. I hope we have the shields to pull this off. I recall many times the AI stealing a key wonder when I had 1 or 2 turns until completion.

The second edge is not a requirement. Pyramids would help tremendously in our expansion. We could cover Legos Major in a shorter amount of time. Therefore, sealing our right to our lands. I will get the Pyramids for sure.

	05-03-2003 07:42									#21
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Sorry guys, didn't have a chance to update the scores until now (in other words - I was too lazy too or forgot )

Now updated to 1425bc.

As Vondrack mentioned - the score is only one component of measuring a civ's power and right now it is heavily weighted towards the amount of territory that one has (then again it will be later on in the game too )

Still it is worth noticing that the score does tell us that RP is growing rapidly compared to us in the past few turns - which might mean that they may have as many or more cities than we do currently (something that we will rectify shortly ...) and did accurately forecast Lux's decline.

A current observation is that Vox is also remaining relatively stable. Now admittedly we know that they gave a city to Lux and that couldn't have helped their score, but it is interesting that GS has been keeping pace with us while Vox hasn't... might mean that GS could be becoming much more powerful than Vox. Something to keep an eye on.

	05-03-2003 22:27									#22
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Sharpe, thank you for the information. I have been doing some tracking myself.

When compared to the average round score, Vox has been on the decline for many years. While GS has been a slight improvement scale. Based on the score, GS is well ahead of Vox.

RP has definitely made up a lot of ground. they had a big jump in 1650 and their growth curve is slight better than ours. With them taking over land, this growth is expected.

GoW is holding steady after declinging for several turns. But they are still below the average. The other big losers are Lux and Vox.

Legoland is on a steady growth curve. I don't see RP overtaking us unless something dramatic occurs. I think we are safe.

GS is on a very slight growth curve, they a poor start. ND is just holding steady.

I would add the chart to this thread if I knew how (I don't think I can). If someone is interested in looking at the chart, I can email them. Or if there is any demand, I will email to Vondrack for posting.

	05-03-2003 23:02									#23
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quote: Originally posted by lmtoops I would add the chart to this thread if I knew how (I don't think I can). If someone is interested in looking at the chart, I can email them. Or if there is any demand, I will email to Vondrack for posting.

Just email it to me, please, and I will post it. I think it will be interesting to have a look.

	06-03-2003 02:09									#24
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OK, here is Leo's score chart (Leo, feel free to edit your comments in):

	06-03-2003 02:14									#25
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What is "0" in this graph?

	06-03-2003 02:59									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius What is "0" in this graph?

Not sure.. not my chart... but "0" appears to be the "average" score of all teams in a given turn, while the charted values are relative to this average.

	06-03-2003 02:59									#27
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Zero is the average score for that turn. So the formula for each point is:

(Individual Team Score on Turn X) - (Avg. Team Score on Turn X)

So the lines represent the Team Trend vs the Average Trend. Teams with an upward trend are beating the average.

One thing to remember is that for every upward trend, there must be a downward trend. For example, in about 1650 RP went up and then down, but GW went down and then up.

So did I complicate things further?

	09-03-2003 02:25									#28
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* Updated *

(I don't know why do I get the extra blank lines Must be reated to how Poly translates posts into html code)

	09-03-2003 03:32									#29
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Actually I like it the new way - much cleaner.

As for the extra lines don't worry, as we add years the table might move up and if not we can always start a new thread for the scores.

	09-03-2003 04:14									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius * Updated * (I don't know why do I get the extra blank lines Must be reated to how Poly translates posts into html code)

Tibi, you must remove all linebreaks ("enters") from the html code. The code will then be somewhat less nicely formatted and more difficult to read and add to, but the extra lines will disappear.