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miggio
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canada
Jan 2003
time: 05:25
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ive never thought of it this way, but maybe bush actually belives sadam has weapons of mass destruction and his intentions are noble to him (and by him i mean bush), but in the back of his mind he knows that if the usa controls the oil of the mid east then they( the usa) will control the world, just recently the bush adminestration used lumber duties against canada, the americans wanted canada to support war without UN backing, and by raising the duties of canadian lumber they put pressure for us (canada) to join them. Its just not cool.
the bush adminestration seems to be blood thirsty.
maybe because they actuallly felt terrorism in a major form first hand and it has jaded there views on the rest of the world.
all i know is that in Canada, we are having enough problems of our own too be jumping in on US wars. but thats just my opinion.
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miggio
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canada
Jan 2003
time: 05:25
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no offense to any americans out there, just my thoughts.
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Mr. President
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The leaves that are green turn to brown
Jul 2001
time: 15:25
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Don't forget his business ties. Most alternative-energy business people admit that the United States could switch to running completely on ethanol before the end of the decade; however, much of Bush's money came from his father's and his father's allies' oil interests, and it's obviously not in their interest to promote alternative energy.
In other words, someone might have whispered in his ear or his advisors' ears that a good way to get reliable oil is to demolish Iraq and re-build it, and have Chevron and Texaco run the oil fields.
Which is stupid, because Canada, Mexico, Venezuela, Brazil, and Australia all produce oil and natural gas, and all are a lot friendlier to America than Iraq ever will be, even with a "reconstructed" "democratic" government.
I could imagine France back-flipping at the eleventh hour to get a cut of any re-construction profits.
In the long run, though, non-fossil-fuel research is the way to deal with OPEC and similar regimes. They can produce as much oil as they want, but if no-one wants to buy it they're screwed.
(Sorry for rambling. It was just so much more pleasant to talk about such things here compared to the OT. I don't even set foot in the current event threads there.  )
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Quickbeam3
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PS I think that most people no matter what nationality just want to get along. Its the leaders and people in power that seem to want to gas this country take over that bit of land etc.
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quinns
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After all the compelling evidence against Saddam Hussein by Secretary Powell yesterday, I still think the best way to deal with him is by a forceful extraction -- not invasion. The U.S. is capable of this extraction today. After Saddam is back in the U.S. for a few months and all the hollering has simmered down, we should send him to trial by the U.N. for all of his crimes against humanity over the last two decades. At the same time, a very strong effort should be offered to Iraq to help them rebuild into a solid democracy. I really hate to see us (the U.S. and her Allies) slaughter tens of thousands more poor Iraqi soldiers and civilians, just to get at one man. This won't be a "war", it will be a "slaughter", plain and simple -- just like in 1991 where we slaughtered over 100,000 Iraqis and lost less than 100 of our own. What a terrible shame. Extract his sorry a**! HE is the problem... not the Iraqis.
So much for my two cents on the subject.
Last edited by quinns on 07-02-2003 at 22:54
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Thud
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Proud to be an American
Jul 2002
time: 00:25
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quote:
This won't be a "war", it will be a "slaughter", plain and simple -- just like in 1991 where we slaughtered over 100,000 Iraqis and lost less than 100 of our own. |
These figures are absolutely wrong. Its obvious you don't know what you're talking about, even when talking about our own casualties, released as 392, more than 100. Further, we expelled the Iraqis from Kuwait. There are no innocent Iraqis to be killed in Kuwait, and Southern Iraq, the only other place our forces took, is not exactly a metropolis, so thus I fail to see how we could possibly have killed so many. The absolute highest estimate that is reasonable is 15000, with most being enemy combatants.
As for innocent deaths, Saddham Hussein has demonstrated his eagerness to cause these on a far more massive scale than we could even hope to accomplish. The Iraq-Iran war, in whoch Saddam used gas and other brutal tactics, resulted in far more deaths than the Persian Gulf war, and many of them were innocent.
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quinns
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Wow... That was a surprise, Thud. You want to turn this into flaming without even being sure yourself. How can you be so absolutely positive of your numbers that you want to insult me directly? I didn't want to turn this into a numbers discussion, I was just trying to make a point, but here are some quotes...
"During the war there were 467 wounded in action, 148 battle deaths, and 145 non-battle deaths. That means we had a 0 .1 percent casualty rate in the war as compared to a confirmed postwar casualty rate of 27.7 percent."
So I was wrong about below 100 (it was 148).
Here is the Iraqi death toll estimate quote from Washington in 1991.
U.S. News & World Report's "Washington
Whispers" page (4/1/91), which featured this one-paragraph item, captioned "The Grim Math":
"Although top U.S. commanders last week estimated that Iraq
suffered at least 100,000 military deaths during the war, other sources in the Gulf say the final
total -- including civilian fatalities -- will be at least twice
that. These sources say the allied aerial attacks inflicted far more casualties than previously
thought."
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quinns
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From CNN.com...
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/gu.../facts/gulfwar/
CNN.com
Gulf War Facts
The Coalition
The Allied coalition consisted of 34 countries, including Afghanistan, Argentina, Australia, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Canada, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Egypt, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Honduras, Italy, Kuwait, Morocco, The Netherlands, Niger, Norway, Oman, Pakistan, Poland, Portugal, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, South Korea, Spain, Syria, Turkey, The United Arab Emirates, the United Kingdom and the United States.
The U.S. had more than 500,000 troops in the Persian Gulf War, while the non-U.S. coalition forces equaled roughly 160,000, or 24 percent, of all forces. Here are some details about the forces in the Gulf:
U.S. casualties: 148 battle deaths, 145 nonbattle deaths
Army: 98 battle; 105 nonbattle
Navy: 6 battle; 8 nonbattle
Marines: 24 battle; 26 nonbattle
Air Force: 20 battle; 6 nonbattle
Women killed: 15
U.S. wounded in action: 467
British casualties: 24, nine by U.S. fire
British wounded in action: 10
French casualties: 2
French wounded in action: 25 (estimated)
Allied Arab casualties: 39
Allied combat air sorties flown: More than 116,000
Coalition aircraft losses: 75 (63 U.S., 12 Allied)
Fixed wing: 37 combat, 15 noncombat (U.S. losses -- 28 combat, 12 noncombat; no U.S. losses in air-to-air engagements)
Helicopters: 5 combat, 18 noncombat (all U.S.)
Iraq
In June 1991, the U.S. estimated that more than 100,000 Iraqi soldiers died, 300,000 were wounded, 150,000 deserted and 60,000 were taken prisoner. Many human rights groups claimed a much higher number of Iraqis were killed in action. According to Baghdad, civilian casualties numbered more than 35,000. However, since the war, some scholars have concluded that the number of Iraqi soldiers who were killed was significantly less than initially reported.
Estimated Iraqi Losses: (Reported by U.S. Central Command, March 7, 1991)
36 fixed-wing aircraft in air-to-air engagements
6 helicopters in air-to-air engagements
68 fixed- and 13 rotary-wing aircraft destroyed on the ground
137 Iraqi aircraft flown to Iran
3,700 of 4,280 battle tanks
2,400 of 2,870 assorted other armored vehicles
2,600 of 3,110 assorted artillery pieces
19 naval ships sunk, 6 damaged
42 divisions made combat-ineffective
Enemy prisoners of war captured: U.S. forces released 71,204 to Saudi control.
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Quickbeam3
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The Iraqi people will not support us in toppoling sadam America said they would support them last time the people rose up and then when america got what it wanted it cut them dry and left them to saddams mercy. Ps have any of you seen three kings with gorge clooney i think it sums up the whole war rather nicely.
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Thud
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Proud to be an American
Jul 2002
time: 00:25
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quote:
In June 1991, the U.S. estimated that more than 100,000 Iraqi soldiers died, 300,000 were wounded, 150,000 deserted and 60,000 were taken prisoner. |
quote:
the non-U.S. coalition forces equaled roughly 160,000 |
This is an interesting contradiction.
quote:
since the war, some scholars have concluded that the number of Iraqi soldiers who were killed was significantly less than initially reported. |
Note this.
Okay. Its really not worth arguing about, people died. I think we all agree that thats bad.
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quinns
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quote:
In June 1991, the U.S. estimated that more than 100,000 Iraqi soldiers died, 300,000 were wounded, 150,000 deserted and 60,000 were taken prisoner.
quote:
the non-U.S. coalition forces equaled roughly 160,000
quote:
Originally posted by Thud
This is an interesting contradiction.
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Thud, The "non-U.S. coalition forces" they refer to are not Iraqi, but other coalition forces that were not U.S. -- e.g. British, French, Australian, ... etc.
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quinns
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quote:
Originally posted by geoffrey arnold
here here Quinns and I belive its a personal thing with Bush as well. Saddam tryed to kill his daddy. Though Saddam is mad anyway. though I think it would be better to hellp the people of Iraq to topple him themselfs. suplying arms and stuff to the Kerds for instance. then the people are more likly to like the us and her allise |
Thanks for the support, Geoffrey! I agree that Bush hates Saddam for trying to kill his daddy, and that may play a big part in the "final straw". There is more to it, though. I still think a forced extraction is the solution. This would solve a lot of problems, as compared to the host of problems created by invasion and occupation. No matter, if we do invade, I will support my people and my president 100%. There is still time for another solution though.
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05-02-2003 11:59
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