06-02-2003 00:33									#1
	DIPLO: Comments on Lux contact log Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I didn't see a comments thread for Lux yet, so I figured I started this one... Original contacts can be found here.

It's interesting to say that the situation is tense on the main continent, when tech trading goes so fast. They indeed plan on getting writing, it wouldn't surprise me if PRG is going to trade it to them, in exchange for mathematics.

We can't really comment on that, we could say that we will get writing ourselves soon, but mathematics... maybe we can ask for a deal on MM or literature, or see if they are interested in something like that.

Or, wrap the question in the same way as to RPG: do you have an eta yet on boats sailing on our coast, or would you be interested in acquiring it from us soon?

I think that going for MM and trading it away to civs when we sail to there has some advantages.... first of all, if 4 civs are closeby, I doubt that they will prioritise it themselves. If we wait for them, it could take a while... I also don't see them mounting any oversee invasion soon, as that will mean they need a fully replaceable army, apart from any defense they will need. If we want contacts, we better get it from Vox, or from our own boats if we don't want to lag behind.

DeepO

	06-02-2003 00:42									#2
	Put an end to popups!

BTW, this confirms the isolation of the legos, they are serious competition for the GL!! Let's hope they don't have the same growth capacity as us, or we will have to settle for the pyramids or lighthouse / collosus.

DeepO

	06-02-2003 01:22									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Thanks for opening this thread, DeepO. Seems like LI will be our second big diplo civ.

I just thought I would comment on BFG's reply, especially on the more surprising answers to my questions:

quote: We have contacts with several civs on our island. In fact, it is rather crowded here. GoW, ND and RP are all neighbours of us.

I believe this is news. Four civs all on the same continent. Plus the statement that "it is rather crowded". This should help us out a great deal, as overcrowding leads to disputes. Also, contact with LI should guarantee contact with almost all other civs.

quote: In the tech tree, we'll soon be acquiring Writing and Mathematics. Let me know if these techs are of interest to you and if you have anything to trade.

Contrary to what Vox said (5 or so turns ago now), LI does not have Writing yet. I assume we're not interested in trading for Math at this time, but I'll have to come up with a "bend the truth" excuse. I'm sure our "no lying" policy does not include "give away all pertinent information", like that fact we're going for the GL.

quote: I cannot say anything about luxuries. Some are in lands between civs, and are not divided yet. Others are a national secret.

Nothing surprising here, although the last line is uncharacteristically ambiguous. Maybe they're sitting on all the Gems?

quote: We'll let you know as soon we have anything to trade, though.

Good good. This statement is very revealing. It basically means that the rest of the world has not made clear plans (with or without Vox) concerning us. Thus, while Vox may be milking their contact superiority, they've got no major plans with the other civs as of yet. So a safe bet is that we can expect essentially neutral to good stances from all the civs on the main continent (just like from LI). This helps our short-term goals greatly.

quote: Our military plans are to defend ourselves when we are attacked. Tension is high here, but we are well equipped. On defense, but also on offense if that may become necessary.

Clearly tensions are high on their continent. So while it may seem that we're being outmatched in tech and trading right now, peace will probably not last, which gives us a nice chance. Our long-term goal should be to engineer a 2 vs. 2 war on the mainland, since any other division creates partnerships we cannot match due to our seclusion.

quote: We would very much be interested in a partnership. We will see if we can buy Contact with you from Vox (as soon as either party has Writing). Then we can open up trade relations!

Excellent! If we get Contact with LI for free, well, I've done my job as ambassador!

quote: We have Barbarians here, too. Not for long, though.

This could either mean their killing off the currently visible camps, or that the fog of war is disappearing rapidly. If the second case is true, they're more cramped than we thought.


Dominae

	06-02-2003 01:47									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Regarding the last message we sent to Lux (to which they replied), shouldn't we have been more revealing and told them a little about our lands? Maybe not which luxuries we have, as these may turn out to be our bargaining chips, but a little about the geographical features perhaps.
IMHO, if we share information about ourselves with Lux, even information that is nearly useless to Lux, they will feel better about our relations.

Regarding crowdedness, note that it was Lux and another civ (was it RPG? I don't remember) that were the first two teams to meet.

	06-02-2003 02:00									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Re: information about our land, or more in general about our situation: What if we told our would be partners that we got hit by disease? They probably have figured out already that we've got fps nearby, but maybe it's good to simply tell them our 'weakness', or they think we're building more workers then we can place on tiles...

One thing to watch out for: Lux might not be completely truthful about the tension on the main continent. Sure, they say it is tense, but is it tenser than simply having to shuffle around with defenders to protect new cities? Would there be blockings going on, trespasses, scouting very close to the borders? Maybe they simply feel the tension as they don't expect to be rushed, but want to keep a minimum of defense in their new cities...

DeepO

	06-02-2003 02:49									#6
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Alot to work on as a diplomat here, that's good...

I hope Lux are serious regarding their plans on buying the contact from Vox, although we might think that it is better, for the sake of future relationships, that we buy contact from Vox ourselves (and perhaps being compensated by LI somehow...). All in all, this message inspires catious optimism, we have to keep the momentum, what do you say about the idea of us spliting the cost of buying the contact from Vox? (without Vox knowing this, obviously)

	06-02-2003 03:11									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Zeit, that's an excellent idea... what if whoever gets contact to the other, gets a gift of 10 gold or so... something small.

OTOH, If we get contact first, I would try to establish an embassy asap... excellent reconaisance Might make going for contact ourselves, possibly by an exchange for writing a good option...

DeepO

	06-02-2003 14:37									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

How about asking to cover half the cost of buying our contact from Vox?

	06-02-2003 14:38									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by DeepO Re: information about our land, or more in general about our situation: What if we told our would be partners that we got hit by disease? They probably have figured out already that we've got fps nearby, but maybe it's good to simply tell them our 'weakness', or they think we're building more workers then we can place on tiles...

I wouldn't like this info to get to Vox. We still can't trust our new friends.

	06-02-2003 15:22									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I watched more carefully at our size, we are going from size 6 to size 2 in 3 turns, anybody who sees this will figure out we're hit by disease anyway...

DeepO

	10-02-2003 01:47									#11
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Interesting thing that I dug out of the PTW forum:

quote: Originally posted by Trip Whatever Legoland is doing, it seems to be working. They're winning by quite a margin.

(he's referring to Legoland's high score)
So, Lux Invicta, or at least Trip, and possibly other teams, may be taking game scores seriously.

	10-02-2003 06:54									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Shiber Interesting thing that I dug out of the PTW forum: (he's referring to Legoland's high score) So, Lux Invicta, or at least Trip, and possibly other teams, may be taking game scores seriously.

I think he was just joking,its hard to imagine anyone taking those scores seriously at this point.

but still, it gives the legos an air of superiority and mystery. The more confusion about other teams, the better

	13-02-2003 20:37									#13
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I saw this message on the multisite demo forum from Trip:

quote: Originally posted by Trip 3 tile spacing, starting from the capital, aiming at good city spots, ignoring potential borders. Trust me, I've learned this from the PTW DG the hard way, and I wouldn't want Apolyton to make the same mistake.

I guess we shall soon se what he means by this. Perhaps this is why his team is one of the weakest?

	13-02-2003 20:46									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Good catch.

	13-02-2003 20:49									#15
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I'm not sure what Trip means myself, or what you're implying by saying that his team is one of the weakest? Are they using wide spacing? This would mean that their score should be actually higher. Or are they using close spacing? This would mean their score is low (as it should be), but then they're tougher opponents.


Dominae

	14-02-2003 06:43									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Dominae I'm not sure what Trip means myself, or what you're implying by saying that his team is one of the weakest? Are they using wide spacing? This would mean that their score should be actually higher. Or are they using close spacing? This would mean their score is low (as it should be), but then they're tougher opponents. Dominae

Right, I was overstating that. What has led me to that is I think roleplay spoke of lux in a negative manner.

And then, Trips language indicated that they had made errors in the game that are costly. Of course, Trip could have planted that info to throw us off...

	14-02-2003 06:52									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

From Lux's score, either they're using very tight city spacing or they're in pretty sad shape (or both).

	14-02-2003 11:09									#18
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I'm pretty sure it's the latter. I wouldn't want to underestimate Lux and its members, but I am getting the impression that Trip is a bit opportunistic an somewhat short-sighted, so he certainly won't use tight spacing. That is, if he is the one who calls the shots in Lux.
In any case, I tend to believe that Lux has had a rough starting location because of their capital's rank in the top 5 cities list from the beginning of the game up until now.

	14-02-2003 13:12									#19
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Dominae I'm not sure what Trip means myself, or what you're implying by saying that his team is one of the weakest? Are they using wide spacing? This would mean that their score should be actually higher. Or are they using close spacing? This would mean their score is low (as it should be), but then they're tougher opponents. Dominae

Actually not. 4 spacing means you do not get the free link tiles automatically. You have to wait for a temple/library and expanded borders to fill in the gaps. This leads to a score lower than the civ that uses 3 spacing and gets many tiles added to territory score before your borders expand.

It also indicates a smaller number of cities overall if the gap gets too big, and lack of cultural improvements.

	14-02-2003 13:19									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I'll agree that there are times when looser spacing results in a lower score than a little bit tigher spacing would, but for Lux to have a competitive number of cities, they would have to be spacing things so tight that their additional cities have significant overlap with their capital and/or other cities. Their score is about the same as Vox's, and Vox's second city just has one tile between it and the capital if I recall what they said correctly.

	14-02-2003 13:29									#21
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

btw, Lego most likely built a Temple right off. I have seen that have a large impact on score early.

	14-02-2003 13:38									#22
	Tired of ads?

The big thing a temple does is to add a third ring around the capital a lot earlier than would happen otherwise. That's the equivalent of well over a newly built 9-tile city. I'm also sort of inclined to bet Lego has built a temple in at least one other city, but it could just be that they have the food bonuses for some truly phenominal REXing. And I'd definitely guess they're going with a loose city pattern. Oh, I'm also well over 90% sure Lego got a luxury hooked up very early.

	14-02-2003 16:53									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Actually not. 4 spacing means you do not get the free link tiles automatically. You have to wait for a temple/library and expanded borders to fill in the gaps. This leads to a score lower than the civ that uses 3 spacing and gets many tiles added to territory score before your borders expand. It also indicates a smaller number of cities overall if the gap gets too big, and lack of cultural improvements.

True, with one exception (and we're in this exception right now): the capital doesn't need temples for border expansions, so 4 spacing from the capital will give most territory fast. After they need to settle cities farther away, the score deminishes, of course.

I'm not sure how to interpret Trip's comment: if they are going for good city sites, and ignore where their borders are going to be, they aren't on a tight city spacing scheme... it's an interesting, but kind of ambiguous message.

I don't have access to screenies, but I thought Lego only recently overtook EotS on the F11 list. The moment they build a temple, their culture would have risen, so I think that was only done recently, and certainly not from the start... I too think a lux was connected very early, but not the temple

DeepO
DeepO

	17-02-2003 09:47									#24
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

does Lux have any techs that we don't have? i.e. warrior code or something else?

As they are soon to be extinct, we might be able to buy stuff off them for a low low price. Of course, we would have to get contact via vox first, correct? It would be nice to get the contact soon so that we can see their power graph, before they are eliminated, just for curiosity sake.

	17-02-2003 10:24									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Can workers be transferred overseas when we don't yet have galleys?

If so, perhaps if lux is really going down, they would give us some workers, rather than let them fall into the hands of nd or gow

	27-02-2003 04:43									#26
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Time to bump this thread (momentarily...).

Here's a summary of the big long chat Tuesday between Trip of Lux Invicta and notyoueither, nbarclay, Theseus and Dominae of Gathering Storm (us).

1. Lux wants to get off the island as quickly as possible. They plan to build a Galley, a Settler and 1 Spearmen. Lux apparently has a promising location lined up for their second capital relocation, but we were not privvy to the exact spot.

2. Lux is working with ~170 gold now. Apparently Vox has this sum, but Lux appears to be trading with it nonetheless.

3. Lux has some units left on their original continent. These are currently "hiding" until Lux finds a suitable opportunity. We do not know exactly how big this guerrila force actually is.

3. Neu Demogyptica currently has 9 Swordsmen, is in the middle of the continent. They are slowly becoming the dominant force.

4. The following terms were agreed upon during Lux's stay on our island:

a) Lux will move no unit more than 1 tile from Portia. That means adjacent.

b) Portia will be left ungarrisoned so that we can verify their forces.

c) Vox will be limited to one defensive unit in your territory, plus however many workers they see fit to send.

d) Lux will not sail South from Portia. Lux will not approach the Southern lands from another direction.

e) Writing and Map Making will be purchased from Gathering Storm for 150 gold and the Lux map. Lux will not resell Writing and Map Making to any other civ.


That's pretty much the gist of it.


Dominae

	27-02-2003 05:32									#27
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Dominae, are you sure on #2? As I read from the thread, Lux has 170 gold, and already paid Vox. Given the information from Vox, we could deduce that Vox has Lux's money, but it could very well be that Lux started off with 320 gold (not that extravagant if they were able to save cash for 20+ turns.)

DeepO

	27-02-2003 05:39									#28
	Support Apolyton

Well, I'm sure that's what was said in the discussion. I guess the matter of the 150 gold requires some discussion...As far as I can tell, Trip lied by us about this.


Dominae

	27-02-2003 05:45									#29
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'm not sure that Trip lied to us, it might be he lied to Vox. The least we can say is that there is some kind of misunderstanding: either we are overanalysing the log (of a chat, which is inherently an informal communication), or something went wrong in the communication between Lux and Vox.

Also, there were a lot of 'sorry, can't detail that' responses of Trip to our questions, this could be something like that. But I never would deduce from Lux's log that Vox currently has our money, and we should trade with Vox for it... I seriously thought that no matter the deal between Vox and Lux, GS and Lux could get a separate deal.

DeepO

	27-02-2003 05:48									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

DeepO, I was at the chat, and it was very clear that we would be exchaning Writing and Map Making for 150 gold and Lux's World Map. That means that Lux needs to come up with that much gold by the time we get Map Making. If Vox is "borrowing" that amount, it is not our problem, IMO.


Dominae