06-02-2003 07:08									#1
	Recommend Guynemer some computers Increase the size of your Attachments

Okie-dokie.

Ye olde P3 450 is, well... ye olde. The time to replace it is nigh. Now, I don't pretend to know a whole lot about hardware specs and whatnot, and I know there are some pretty knowledgable people here when it comes to that sort of thing.

What I'm looking for is something good enough to keep running top-flight games for a few years. Yes, sad to say, I mostly use the computer for gaming; much as I love the Gamecube, you just can't get games of a certain quality or style on consoles. So, kindly fill me in on some good things to look for, re: memory, speed, video card, manufactorer, CD drive, etc.

Also, if someone could answer a monitor question--I've heard that the new flat panel monitors do not offer as sharp a picture as the old school monitors; the price difference is mostly due to the saving of space and energy. Is this true? If so, I may just hang on to my old 19" VX700, hasn't caused me any problems at all.

	06-02-2003 08:01									#2
	Re: Recommend Guynemer some computers Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Re: Monitors
LCDs and good CRTs are on par with image quality for the most part. Lots of LCDs aren't great for gaming though, their response rates are too low which results in "tearing" in fast paced games, like first person shooters. If your current monitor works fine I'd stay with it. LCD prices are coming down all the time, when your current one bites the dust it'll be good to upgrade.

Basically, you've got two routes to go down for most components. You've got the Intel and AMD route. AMD may be a little cheaper, but they don't offer parts as fast as Intel's. Since you want to run the top games for a couple years, you should aim for high-end.

Intel: There's two breeds of Pentium 4s out right now in general availability: the fastest is the 3.06GHz Pentium 4, and it has a special feature called "HyperThreading" which allows the processor to run two threads at once, instead of one like the previous Pentium 4s and AMD's processors. Most games get a decent performance boost (+10% or so) out of this now, but when it's specifically targetted in upcoming games the boost will be greater. For that reason, I recommend you get the 3.06GHz Pentium 4. It's somewhat pricey, though, the cheapest available is $623. A much better deal is the 2.8GHz P4 (no hyperthreading) for $367.

I'd recommend the Intel route simply because then you can use an Intel motherboard. In my experience, Intel makes the best motherboard chipsets in the market, and will save you quite a bit of headaches that you may get with the Via and SiS chipsets which you must use on the Athlon.

AMD:
The Athlon XP 2800+ (roughly the speed of a P4 2.8GHz) is about $405 right now. The 2600+ is ~$254.

I'd still go with Intel, AMD's processors above 2500+ aren't any cheaper for a comparable Intel.

Motherboards and memory:
Basically, you want DDR333 (PC2700 DDR) no matter what system you get. There are "dual channel" versions available or shortly available for both AMD and Intel, and those are your best bet for highest performance. Instead of one memory channel, they've got two -- it theoretically doubles memory bandwidth.

If you get an Intel, the dual-channel chipset is called the Intel's E7205. It's the best chipset for DDR you can get right now, but I also don't know its pricing. If you only need single-channel, the cheaper i845E is available from about a dozen manufacturers.

If you get an AMD, I'd personally recommend a Via KT333 or KT400 based system. I've got a KT333 and it's pretty good.

Video card
Hmm. How soon are you getting this computer? Prices on ATI's Radeon 9700 are supposed to be dropping within a couple weeks as Nvidia's GeForce FX becomes available. They perform around the same, and the Radeon is MUCH quieter.

However, in March, the Radeon 9700's successor is due out.

But if I had to buy a card right now, definitely the Radeon 9700 Pro. Realllllly fast, fully DirectX 9 compatible.

CD Drives
Not sure what you mean. You probably want to get one of those combo drives, DVD-ROM & CD-RW in one, then you can do everything. You probably don't need or want a DVD burner...

	06-02-2003 08:07									#3
	Remove this text

Great load of help, Asher. Thank a bunch.

Re: CD drives, just wanted to know what the best option is without DVD. I have no interest in watching movies on my computer, and I'm not aware of any other used for DVD-ROM... as I said, not up on hardware and tech stuff very much.

	06-02-2003 08:09									#4
	Tired of ads?

DVD-ROMs are beginning to get popular for data too. Lots of games coming out these days are on 2-4 CDs, and a dual-layer DVD can hold 9GB rather than 700MB on CDs.

The only software I know of readily available in DVD format is some linux distros.

But it's really optional, you can always get one later for cheap if you need it.

In this case, a simple CD-RW drive will suffice, since it can read and write CDs.

	06-02-2003 08:13									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Again, many many thanks. You've given me much to consider.

As an expression of my appreciation, I'd like to ask the hockey gods to continue to bless the Flam... um... nevermind.

	06-02-2003 20:23									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

*sighs deeply*

I hate to confuse you a bit, Guy, but Asher is wrong on one key point about the AMD processors. He speaks the truth when he says that going Intel is better in terms of the motherboard, but the fact of the matter is that AMD Athlon processors usually significantly outperform their Intel equivalents. You can check out several computer-interest websites (I use PCWorld.com, for instance) to see this for yourself. I, personally, am waiting until the new 64-bit Opterons to come out in September for both desktop and laptop systems to upgrade my current system (700 mHz original Athlon, one which I've never had a serious performance problem with).

Agree that if you're not interested in watching movies on your PC, that a DVD-ROM drive isn't necessary.

Additionally, make sure that any system you get comes with plenty of USB 2.0 ports. Most new USB devices coming out these days won't work on older 1.1 ports (2.0 is about, I think, forty times as fast as 1.1). You may also want to invest in some FireWire ports if you want to get involved in recording digital audio or video (most of the equipment for that won't be compatible with USB 2.0).

	06-02-2003 21:44									#7
	Got spare money?

Sure, Athlon and P4 are roughly the same price above 2400, but why bother? The increase in speed is marginal, and smart people of course maximise marginal value. So anywhere from 2000 to 2400 is good.

Another thing. The nForce2 chipset for Athlons is a mighty piece of work. Dual channels and everything. Check out the Asus A7N8X. That, my friend, is awesome.

	06-02-2003 23:38									#8
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by reismark *sighs deeply* I hate to confuse you a bit, Guy, but Asher is wrong on one key point about the AMD processors. He speaks the truth when he says that going Intel is better in terms of the motherboard, but the fact of the matter is that AMD Athlon processors usually significantly outperform their Intel equivalents.

"Significantly outperform"? AMD's been in the backseat for performance for many months now...










I really wouldn't say that the Athlons are "significantly outperforming" the Pentium 4s, really.

	06-02-2003 23:42									#9
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Maybe in that arena, Asher, the Intels are faring better than the Athlons, but the new 3.0 GB Pentiums are doing MUCH WORSE in PCWorld benchmarking tasks, which include other things (like say, for example, using Windows Explorer, or word processing) besides playing games.

	06-02-2003 23:42									#10
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Why not just order a new system from Dell? The prices are good and the quality is the best in the business plus they'll explain all the different options to you over the phone.

	06-02-2003 23:46									#11
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by reismark Maybe in that arena, Asher, the Intels are faring better than the Athlons, but the new 3.0 GB Pentiums are doing MUCH WORSE in PCWorld benchmarking tasks, which include other things (like say, for example, using Windows Explorer, or word processing) besides playing games.

PCWorld, first of all, is an absolute joke.

Second of all, what the hell are you talking about -- WORD PROCESSING and WINDOWS EXPLORER benchmarks on a Pentium 4 3.0GHz don't perform as well as an Athlon XP 2800+????

WORD PROCESSING???

You've been watching too much wrestling...

The things people need fast processors for are encoding/decoding, gaming, rendering, etc. Not word processing.

I want to see those benchmarks, by the way, since every single reputable independent hardware site would disagree.

The 3.06GHz Pentium 4s are accepted by everyone to be faster than the Athlons in the vast majority of applications...

	06-02-2003 23:49									#12
	Got spare money?

Here's the "extremely scientific" benchmarks you're referring to:

http://common.ziffdavisinternet.com/util_get_image/1/0,3363,sz=1&i=17815,00.gif

By the way, PCMagazine is the "ignorant consumer" version of ExtremeTech, where my detailed benchmarks came from...ZD publishes both.

	06-02-2003 23:52									#13
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Here's the "Word Processing" benchmarks in detail.


The "Media Creation" benchmarks by the same people (where CPU speeds really matters):

	07-02-2003 06:32									#14
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Save it for the ME threads, guys. Just computers we're talking about here.

Thanks again for the help...

	07-02-2003 08:53									#15
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Interesting choice of software, I say.

	07-02-2003 10:13									#16
	Inflate your Upload Space

If you have money to burn, go with Intel. If you want to spend money wisely, go with AMD. My Athlon XP 1700+ runs anything at the highest graphics settings and resolution without a hiccup. A gig of RAM and a GeForce 4 TI 4200 help also . 6 months ago, I bought the components for the system and built them for around $650.

	07-02-2003 10:17									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: My Athlon XP 1700+ runs anything at the highest graphics settings and resolution without a hiccup.

Exaggeration.

I've got a similar system, only it's an Athlon XP 2100+ and a GeForce 4 Ti4600 128MB, and it certainly doesn't run "without a hiccup" at the highest graphics settings (8x anisotropic, 4xS FSAA) and resolutions (1600x1200).

	07-02-2003 10:22									#18
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well perhaps you don't know how to tweak your system then... and I'm not exaggerating... the newest games I have: Battlefield 1942, Simcity 4000, Madden 2003, and Unreal2k3 all are run at the highest settings and highest resolution without hiccups at all. Perhaps you have too much crap in your system tray, or not enough RAM dedicated to your programs. I also run a processor controller prog that functions similar to a Mac OS, allowing me to reserve not only RAM, but processor power to programs.

	07-02-2003 10:26									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Sava Well perhaps you don't know how to tweak your system then...

quote: and I'm not exaggerating... the newest games I have: Battlefield 1942, Simcity 4000, Madden 2003, and Unreal2k3 all are run at the highest settings and highest resolution without hiccups at all. Perhaps you have too much crap in your system tray, or not enough RAM dedicated to your programs.

You know who you're talking to, right?

Link me to your 3DMark2001SE stats.

	07-02-2003 10:28									#20
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Asher You know who you're talking to, right?

Yes, the local Wintel fanboy. What about it?

	07-02-2003 10:30									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

As for system tweak settings, let's try it:
What's your AGP aperture size set to?
Which driver version do you use?
What mipmap setting?
What z-buffer depth? Do you force one, or use app default?
What aniso setting do you use?
Which pageflipping/buffer flipping mode?
AGP fastwrites enabled?
AGP sidebanding?
What LOD settings?

	07-02-2003 10:32									#22
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Yes, the local Wintel fanboy. What about it?

Oh, give it up, Urban.

I've got an AMD gaming rig and I run a Linux dualboot.

Just because I happen to think Intel processors are better in general than AMDs doesn't mean I'm an Intel fanboy. Just because I happen to think Windows is a far better OS in general than Linux for the average consumer doesn't mean that I'm a windows fanboy.

I know people all think that, but they're all very wrong.

	07-02-2003 10:34									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I know your kind Asher. You're a little-know-it-all that thinks he's smarter than everyone else. No wonder I have you on ignore.

UR

	07-02-2003 10:36									#24
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Sava I know your kind Asher. You're a little-know-it-all that thinks he's smarter than everyone else. No wonder I have you on ignore. UR

You're bullshitting, Sava, and I'm calling you on it.

Not only is it patently ridiculous to run even the latest games in full-res with full graphics settings on an Athlon 1700+ with a G4 Ti4200, but it's ridiculous for you to add me to your ignore list when I ask for detailed information (since you're obviously so 1337 when it comes to "tweaking your system") and 3DMark compares.

You and UR both don't like me because I constantly call you on BS no one else usually does. It doesn't surprise me you'd put me on your ignore list.

Grow up, and stop blatantly lying.

I worked at Voodoo Computers (have you heard of them? 'Fastest gaming rigs on earth', that kind of thing?) and tweaking the computers for optimum 3D performance is what we did.

	07-02-2003 10:42									#25
	Support Apolyton

Guynemer.... just consider cost when buying either Athlon or Intel. I'd go with 2 gig at least and not bother with more than 2.4 The money you save plus what you will save by not needing a monitor as well, can be put into the best video card, sound card and memory ( I'd suggest a gig of memory, at the least).

That should be enough for extreme gaming for a few years.

I have a Dell Dimension 4300... 1.6 gig, 512 ram (only sdram 133mhz, but it works fine) 19 in. monitor. 64mb geforce2 card... blah blah.

Cost me under 1300 US and runs every game I have ever bought, no problem.

The system you can get, with higher specs will be good for at least 2 years or more.

But all that is just my opinion and I am no Einstein.

	07-02-2003 18:37									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

--"What I'm looking for is something good enough to keep running top-flight games for a few years."

Ah, so you're looking to spend a fair bit, then.
The main remaining question is what's your timeframe? How long you are willing to wait will effect the recommendations.

--"I've heard that the new flat panel monitors do not offer as sharp a picture as the old school monitors"

This is incorrect. LCD monitors offer a sharper picture than CRT monitors, although they do need to be run at their native resolution. They aren't perfect, however. The main current weakness is pixel reponse time, which can be a problem with quick moving games like FPS.

Personally, I just got an LCD and am extremely happy with it. If you do go for one, make sure to get a video card with DVI output, and make sure you see the monitor in action on your favorite game before you buy.
(Mine is the Samsung 181T, btw, but I'm not a big gamer anymore so I can comment there.)

--"I'd recommend the Intel route simply because then you can use an Intel motherboard."

Intel does good motherboards, but you're ignoring something.

If you get an Athlon, go with an nForce 2 motherboard (probably from Abit or Asus). Excellent performance, features, and stability.

General recommendations:
Don't ever buy the latest released processor. The price premium is never worth it for 99% of users.
The same usually goes for video cards, but these can sometimes be worth the money if there's something specific you've got planned (same as with processors, really).

You'll want at least 512 MB of RAM. Depending on your games, you may want to go all the way to 1 Gig.

Video cards... well, that depends. If you're planning to do stuff like multimedia, home theater PC, things like that, you'll probably want to go ATI. Otherwise the Geforce 4 TI line is still a good buy. Best bet is probably to wait a little until the new lines come out and all the other prices drop.

You will want a CD burner. I've got a nice Yamaha myself. I'd hold off on DVD burners for now. I'm waiting for one that can burn to dual-layer DVDs (available in Japan, but not the US).

And don't forget a good hard drive. You're going for a gaming system, so you aren't going to get whisper quiet, but noise levels are something else to consider. The new Segate Barracuda V (Serial ATA, make sure your next motherboard supports that) looks like a good choice.

Another reason to recommend the nForce 2 boards is their sound. It's up at or above Creative Audigy levels, and the nVidia drivers don't have anywhere near the same amount of problems Creative's do.
They also have an integrated 10/100 NIC (or two, depending on the model you get), along with the other necessities like firewire and USB. If you don't go with nForce 2 make sure to get a good NIC, like the Intel Pro 10/100 or even 10/100/1000 NICs.
I also recommend Alpha heatsinks.

--""Significantly outperform"? AMD's been in the backseat for performance for many months now..."

Asher, I know you read places that do good reviews, like Ace's Hardware. Why in the world are you linking to Ziff Davis results? They aren't exactly the cream of the crop...

Ace's just did a Gamer's Upgrade Guide, too. And it sounds like an interesting NDA will be ending on Monday, so keep an eye out for it.

Wraith
"America is like a candy store. You can have anything you want, anything at all... as long as you pay for it."
-- Italian proverb

	07-02-2003 20:32									#27
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Asher, I know you read places that do good reviews, like Ace's Hardware. Why in the world are you linking to Ziff Davis results? They aren't exactly the cream of the crop...

AcesHardware doesn't have nice purty images to link to for benchmark results.

Same with Anand...

Edit: By the way, the NDA being lifted in monday is probably 3DMark2003. They've got a countdown till 3DMark2003 on their website in seconds, and by my calculations, that's about when it'll launch.

	09-02-2003 03:03									#28
	Suffering from ads?

One last question--

As I said, I'm not particularly tech savvy, so I can't put these components together myself. Did a little comparasion shopping online on very similar systems (2.66 MHz, 1GB RAM, ATI, no monitor, etc.) and here's what I found--

Dell $2300
Gateway $2100
Compaq $1800

Now, I've been using Gateways for years, never had any problems. But, from what I've heard, they've dropped from a neck-and-neck quality with Dells, and the formerly poor quality (by comparasion) Compaqs have, at the very least, caught up with the Cow. Is this more or less true? Would slightly increased reliability and improved support be worth $500, from Compaq to Dell? Any other online sites I should check out for price comparasion?

Hope that video card price drop happens soon...

	09-02-2003 10:30									#29
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

My recommendation - go to the local computer shop and have them assemble your rig. You get to pick and choose your components, and you get top quality service.