07-02-2003 21:27									#31
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"In the end, it means US supremacy on oil." - Spiffor

I was looking for someone to write this. Duh! It doesn't matter if we buy Iraqi oil right now or not. By conquering Iraq we get more valuable negotiating chips in the oil market. No wonder almost everyone wants to keep the US from doing it. The French aren't as stupid as they like to make themselves appear.

	07-02-2003 21:30									#32
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK By conquering Iraq we get more valuable negotiating chips in the oil market.

It's too expensive to do it for that reason. Besides we already control Canada.

	07-02-2003 21:31									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I don't believe any second we'd go to war only because Saddam is an *******, it is pure propaganda for the public opinion Believe it, because that is the reason for war. It has little, if anything, to do with oil.[...]It's kinda funny. Most Americans though, I believe, know [me bolding] that this war is because of Bush's hatred for Saddam and all he stands for.

Why didn't Bush begin to send troops as soon as he got to power, if all of this is a simple Vendetta between Bush and Hussein families ?
Also, I'm curious how anyone could know what's inside Bush's head, except Bush himself. We can only speculate and guesstimate. People knowing that war is led for noble reasons are utterly brainwashed IMHO.

	07-02-2003 21:32									#34
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The president doesn't have absolute power. In fact he has much much less power than people commonly believe that he has. This may or may not be Bush's plan, but it is obviously supported by other powerfull people.

	07-02-2003 21:34									#35
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK The French aren't as stupid as they like to make themselves appear.

Sure, but our kickass diplomats are as clumsy as they appear. Our clumsy-extraordinaire president helps also to make us look stupid.
Had we a more competent leadership, I'm sure there wouldn't have been any axis of vassals.

	07-02-2003 21:36									#36
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quote: Why didn't Bush begin to send troops as soon as he got to power

Yeah, like that would have flown.

He is in a much better position now to do this than he was then, especially after the midterm election.

quote: People knowing that war is led for noble reasons are utterly brainwashed IMHO.

You mean just like the people knowing the war is led for oil are utterly brainwashed?

	07-02-2003 21:39									#37
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Imran : absolutely. People who take it as a solid fact than "it is only about oil" without questioning this belief (or at least acknowledging it is a mere opinion) are brainwashed as well.
Most people I've seen here claiming it is about oil had some reasons to back their speculations, and except Paiktis, I don't think anyone here took it for a solid fact.

	07-02-2003 21:39									#38
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"It's too expensive to do it for that reason. Besides we already control Canada."

Oil is still a very significant commodity. Even if the war were 10 times as expensive it would still be worth it.

I'm still for the war. I wouldn't be if it were only for oil. We still have to remove Saddam, but we just get some spoils for it.

	07-02-2003 21:45									#39
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quote: People who take it as a solid fact than "it is only about oil" without questioning this belief

But you never said that people knowing it is ONLY about noble reasons are brainwashed. You just said anyone that thinks there are noble reasons behind the action are brainwashed. Thus a person that thinks there is some noble reasons and some power politics, you'd consider brainwashed.

	07-02-2003 21:58									#40
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If you want to play with words Imran

I was referring to people knowing it was about noble beliefs (notice I originally bolded the word when I first answered to you). By "knowing", I mean "take as a solid fact".

I don't consider you are brainwashed if you think it is about noble reasons, but still acknowlledge this is your opinion (and hence acknowledge you can be wrong). I will consider you brainwashed if you consider it as a solid fact.

If most Americans know this war is caused by Bush hate for Saddam and everythin he stands for, this is very worrying for the free-spirit of the American population. Edit : fortunately, seeing the debates on these boards, I sure think the American opinion isn't that ignorant

	07-02-2003 22:09									#41
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First, I don't think that this war has anything to do with hate for Saddam. That would be too disgusting, even for the US.

Second, its Willem that thinks Americans are all brainwashed, not Spiffor.

	07-02-2003 22:32									#42
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DuncanK : don't get me wrong, I think there is a deliberate attempt to use massive propaganda to the US public, so that it agrees with everything the government says (hence the veeeeeery war-friendly coverage of Iraq in the big news networks)
However, I believe the Americans resisted this attempt to brainwash them, and I sure hope they'll continue to do so.

	07-02-2003 22:37									#43
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Right. I agree that we are somewhat hoodwinked. But Willem goes a mit overboard with the brainwash thing.

	07-02-2003 22:55									#44
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Yep. I guess many of us get overboard a bit these times

	08-02-2003 02:31									#45
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quote: First, I don't think that this war has anything to do with hate for Saddam. That would be too disgusting, even for the US.

Not just hate for the person, but hate for what he represents and what he's done (and doing). Bush definetly does have personal animosity for Saddam, and if you do recall many were wondering when we were going to attack Iraq back in early 2001.

	10-02-2003 16:55									#46
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We need to bomb.

	10-02-2003 17:04									#47
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we need to kill half a million iraqis to prove that we were right... huh?!?!

also as anti war as i am i dont believe this is about oil, rather i believe this is about a personal vendetta which is much worse a reason to go to war than oil. hell id be more inclined to support the war if it were about oil...lord knows we could use lower gas prices, but then again thats just wishful thinking.

	10-02-2003 17:07									#48
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Yeah, just like how the left said we would kill half a million Afghans? The West probably has saved lives in Afghanistan, in the long run. And we'll do the same in Iraq.


Opposition to the war is based on nothing but tired anti-Americanism and jealousy.

	10-02-2003 17:17									#49
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jealousy of what? i live here and im not anti-american. what have i to be jealous of? why dont you make more unfounded claims on why people dont support the war.

you should read about americas plan to launch several hundred cruise missiles into bahgdad? "there will be no safe place in bahgdad". are the iraqis just gonna go into their bomb shelters(you mean they didnt build bomb shelters)?

in afghanistan did we really bomb their cities into shambles and attack the populace? the US is trying to befriend the populace of afghanistan. how are we gonna do that in iraq after launching a terror campaign with death from above? after the war, there will be no peace in the middle east for generations.

	10-02-2003 17:19									#50
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Have you even thought by the credible threat the US and UK are posing is in order for the weapons inspectors to be given greater chance to finish their job successfully?

The US and UK don't want to go to war - they want the inspections to work. But they are more likely to work if they credibly threaten war - which they most certainly have!

	10-02-2003 17:27									#51
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did you listen to the speech that bush make? "the game is over" whats that supposed to mean?!?! it certainly doesnt mean "lets continue with caution and prudence". stop being naive, please.

	10-02-2003 17:31									#52
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Like I said, caution and prudence would signal to Saddam that he still has time left to play his games of deception.

	10-02-2003 17:34									#53
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i see the point youre trying to make, but i doubt bush would call off the dogs...theres nothing that i have read or heard to lead me to believe war will not happen.

	10-02-2003 17:39									#54
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..because of Saddam's deception.

BTW, if you want prudence, care to criticise anti-war countries for not allowing prudent defences to be built up in Turkey?

	10-02-2003 17:46									#55
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well this is about to turn into another debate about whether i think the war is just even if saddam is deceptive. ive stated my position as a pacifist and thats that.

as for anti war countries not allowing defenses in turkey how are they doing that? link me baby!

these arent defences being built up, these are offensive forces being mounted for invasion. i dont think turkey has a problem defending themselves.

	10-02-2003 17:48									#56
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Try looking at BBC's main news story.

	10-02-2003 18:01									#57
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i dont get that though, if war is blocked how is turkey's "territorial integrity, political independence or security" threathened? who are the defending themselves from?

	10-02-2003 19:47									#58
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quote: The US and UK don't want to go to war - they want the inspections to work. But they are more likely to work if they credibly threaten war - which they most certainly have!

Nonsense. Everyone knows the inspections were just window dressing to give an invasion a whiff of legitimacy. There was a troop buildup in the gulf WAY before the inspectors got in country.

What are they gonna do? Pull all those troops and hardware back, if saddam fully cooperates, and say "uhh sorry about that, carry on". War was the first and only option, and that's why im opposed

	10-02-2003 19:59									#59
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So another 12 more years of soft diplomacy then DetroitDave?

	10-02-2003 20:02									#60
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quote: Originally posted by DetroitDave Nonsense. Everyone knows the inspections were just window dressing to give an invasion a whiff of legitimacy. There was a troop buildup in the gulf WAY before the inspectors got in country.

Whether it's window dressing or not... Not EVERYONE knows it or agrees with your opinion...

But as far as the troop build up goes... it's the only way they can do it. It takes TIME to put the assest in place. You just can't say... gee, let's go to war today. Having the forces in place is what makes the "threat" credible.