10-02-2003 20:13									#61
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quote: So another 12 more years of soft diplomacy then DetroitDave?

There should be ten times the inspectors in country right now. There should be so many inspectors there that when Saddam takes a dump, there should be someone standing over him with a clipboard.

Think the Iraqis are decieving us? Send more inspectors. Are they intercepting phones and communiques? Gosh darn, looks like we'll have to send more inspectors to hand deliver those messages. Human rights abuses? Lightbulbs need changing?.....

But war should be the last resort. And no soft diplomacy either, but one that builds slowly, like a pressure cooker. Bush needs to take a few lessons from machiavelli.

	10-02-2003 20:18									#62
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This is the last resort!

	10-02-2003 20:49									#63
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quote: Originally posted by DetroitDave But war should be the last resort. And no soft diplomacy either, but one that builds slowly, like a pressure cooker. Bush needs to take a few lessons from machiavelli.

I agree with you Dave. I don't think its about oil, but about Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld having a hardon for the Iraqis. But foreign policy can't be based on personal revenge. The US would also have a lot more credibility if we werent clamoring for war from Day 1. The US would be much better off if we were building diplomatic pressure now with the goal of resolving the Iraq issue next year, after we have nailed down more pressing issues, such as attacking terrorism and rebuilding Afghanistan. One problem with this approach, however, is that we had to drag the Euros kicking and screaming to get them this far. When we argued for war, they argued for sanctions. When we argued for sanctions, they proposed to do nothing. War is the wrong choice now, but ultimately we can't do nothing for another 12 years.

	11-02-2003 16:25									#64
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Remember, all the posters who against war in Iraq now were against war in Afghanistan, saying how many millions it would kill and how Americans would be sent back in body bags in their scores.

Shows how much they know.

	11-02-2003 18:14									#65
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The chance for a peaceful resolution has always been small but even that slim chance was predicated upon Saddam being unnerved by a united front set against him. The French-German axis have now betrayed that united front and that means there is no longer any chance for a peaceful resolution.

	11-02-2003 18:16									#66
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zing boddingtons! ZING! less absolutism next time.

	11-02-2003 18:25									#67
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quote: all the posters who against war in Iraq now were against war in Afghanistan

Not true. I actually couldn't see any alternative to the Afghanistan war. My reservations were what would happen after the Taliban were replaced.... well, well, well, what do you know, it's all going to **** there.

quote: saying how many millions it would kill and how Americans would be sent back in body bags in their scores

Also factually deficient.

	11-02-2003 18:31									#68
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Come on Mike; be honest. Boddington is sterio typing but there is a kernel of truth in what he's saying.

	11-02-2003 18:48									#69
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Not really, from my perspective he's totally missing the point of what peoples objections to the war are.

I'd be happy for Saddam to be gone. I still have yet to be convinced that the war won't totally blow up the whole of the middle east into some huge nuclear escalation. (Iraq might not have nukes but Israel does).

Or have western troops stationed there permenantly. Like a giant Northern Ireland.

He's just focusing on the points that people focus on when they want to suggest that the people who disagree with them are cowards because it's easier than actually addressing the issues.

	11-02-2003 18:54									#70
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I'd give the odds that Israel will nuke Baghdad as 1 in 5. Saddam supposedly has moved Scud launchers into western Iraq were they can hit Israel and he has, again supposedly, authorized the use of chemical & biological weapons.

If he uses nerve gas on a large Israeli city then I'd say Baghdad will start to glow.

	11-02-2003 18:58									#71
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We are going to have a hard time getting out of Iraq just like Bosnia, Kosovo, and Afghanastan before it. Heck or Germany, Japan, Korea, Italy...

	11-02-2003 23:54									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I'd give the odds that Israel will nuke Baghdad as 1 in 5. Saddam supposedly has moved Scud launchers into western Iraq were they can hit Israel and he has, again supposedly, authorized the use of chemical & biological weapons. If he uses nerve gas on a large Israeli city then I'd say Baghdad will start to glow.

And this fact will not improve with time. I would be willing to bet that more than 50% of the timing of this escalation has to do with preventing Israel from preemptively striking Iraq, like they did 15 years ago, because this time a conventional airstrike probably won't be enough. The last thing that anybody in the world needs is a WMD exchange between two states with differing religious beliefs. Continuing support for Israel has been difficult in the States, a WMD strike by them would raise that difficulty a thousand fold. Either the US takes over Iraq and installs a new government, or the US withdraws support for Israel and allows a Samson option nuclear confrontation in the ME. In the end it couldn't be less about oil.

	11-02-2003 23:57									#73
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quote: Originally posted by DetroitDave There should be ten times the inspectors in country right now. There should be so many inspectors there that when Saddam takes a dump, there should be someone standing over him with a clipboard.

Bush proposed do just that last year and it got poo-pooed by the French. Face it DD just about everything has been tried over the last 12 years and none of it has succeeded.

	12-02-2003 00:14									#74
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I cannot see any scenario under which Israel will use it's nukes in first strike, unless faced with total defeat in a conventional military conflict, or worse.

	12-02-2003 00:44									#75
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What about Iraq fueling up nuke tipped Scuds aimed at Israel??

You have 90 minutes to track them all down conventionally, or do you airburst a nuke to fry the electronics?

Or what do you do?

	12-02-2003 00:54									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel I cannot see any scenario under which Israel will use it's nukes in first strike, unless faced with total defeat in a conventional military conflict, or worse.

I could totally see Israel responding to an NBC attack with nukes. The U.S., Britain, and Russia all have the same policy; if even one NBC weapon is used then the enemy gets hit with the entire arsenal.

Why should Israel's policy be any different?

	12-02-2003 15:40									#77
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If we all thought like this we'd never resolve any conflicts "just in case nukes are used".

War involves risks Mike.

quote: Originally posted by MikeH Not really, from my perspective he's totally missing the point of what peoples objections to the war are. I'd be happy for Saddam to be gone. I still have yet to be convinced that the war won't totally blow up the whole of the middle east into some huge nuclear escalation. (Iraq might not have nukes but Israel does). Or have western troops stationed there permenantly. Like a giant Northern Ireland. He's just focusing on the points that people focus on when they want to suggest that the people who disagree with them are cowards because it's easier than actually addressing the issues.

	12-02-2003 15:45									#78
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Yep. And you weigh up the risks and decide whether the potential benefits are worth the risks or not.

At the moment you think it is, I think it isn't.

	12-02-2003 15:48									#79
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Only because you are a left-winger and criticise Blair and America whenever you can.

You have ulterior motives.

	12-02-2003 16:05									#80
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Sorry you think that. I disagree or agree with each individual policy on it's own merits. Being a left winger means I often don't agree with Blair or the American government, that's true.

I have no interest in promoting my own views by unilaterally disagreeing with everything they do though. That would just make me look stupid. No government does absolutely everything 'right' or has policies that you agree with all of.

I could accuse you of taking the extreme right position on every issue because you had an ulterior motive but I'm sure you'd argue that wasn't the case and that you think about each issue on it's individual merits. Why should someone with a more socialist and liberal outlook than you be any different?

Incidently, what was my ulterior motive supposed to be?

	12-02-2003 17:08									#81
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"Incidently, what was my ulterior motive supposed to be?"

Criticising the actions of Blair and America/Bush whenever you can.

	12-02-2003 17:18									#82
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That's not a motive, that's an action.

What's my motive for doing that?

	12-02-2003 17:26									#83
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That's your motive. Your action is being against Gulf War 2.

	12-02-2003 17:34									#84
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How can that be a motive? It's an action. Being against Gulf War 2 is an opinion.

For instance, were I to stoop low enough to retaliate with the same kind of accussation I'd try and imply that you were doing the following.

Action, starting a series of extreme right wing threads posting outrageous positions as common sense.

Motive, to cause the greatest reaction possible amongst the posting population.

But that would be unreasonable. I have to assume that you really believe what you post and have come to that opinion by looking at the evidence presented to you. Otherwise it would just be trolling.

	12-02-2003 19:59									#85
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boddington's, do you believe half of what you type?

	12-02-2003 20:08									#86
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I hope he doesn't. Honestly. I don't know what would make me feel more sorry for him, knowing he did think that way or that he wanted people to believe he did.

Either way, very sad to see someone so young so bitter.

	12-02-2003 20:33									#87
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Now that the Republican Administration has raised the "Threat Level", thank goodness we have a big business to supply our plastic & duct tape needs!

After all it takes 5+ minutes to cover a door or window with plastic [how many doors and windows do you have?], it takes a gas attack 20 seconds to kill you.

Buy plastic & duct tape, it will help the economy!

	13-02-2003 06:44									#88
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Sloww: Tyco and Shurrtape make duct tape. No 3M.

Everyone: Here's an excellent summary of the math for the cost-benefit wrt oil for the coming conflict. In short, it wouldn't make any sense at all to trade blood for oil in this situation. Gulf War I was all about oil, but this one isn't.

http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentS...p=1012571727092

	13-02-2003 07:31									#89
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If we take over Iraq, we will deregulate their oil industry and set up our own corporations. These companies will not have to pay for 'rebuilding Iraq'