07-02-2003 19:16									#31
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger I thought this was every countires responsibility a bit like the Geneva convention

Actually I'm not sure that the US signed the Geneva Convention.

	07-02-2003 19:19									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Actually I'm not sure that the US signed the Geneva Convention.

Well you can't have Gods chosen people being told to treat POW's properly.

Where will it end, will be telling you not to execute children next

	07-02-2003 19:22									#33
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quote: Mexican President Vicente Fox (news - web sites) angrily canceled a planned meeting with President Bush (news - web sites) in Texas last year after the state ignored Mexican pleas for clemency for Javier Medina.

Where we that petty when they were stealing water from us (something of far more import)?

	07-02-2003 20:18									#34
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What you people need to realize is that the US is not the same as Texas. Texas is a state in the US, sure, but in terms of crime and punishment, the US can't do a lot about what Texas does, provided Texas isn't violating the Constitution. And I still fail to see how this violates the Constitution.

	07-02-2003 20:21									#35
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd What you people need to realize is that the US is not the same as Texas. Texas is a state in the US, sure, but in terms of crime and punishment, the US can't do a lot about what Texas does, provided Texas isn't violating the Constitution. And I still fail to see how this violates the Constitution.

So you are saying when the US signs a treaty it isn't binding on the States themselves.

The argument here is that the defendants as foreigners were entitled to consular assistance, this was denied to them.Why is Texas not bound to this treaty

	07-02-2003 20:25									#36
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State's rights.

	07-02-2003 20:27									#37
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand State's rights.

I can already feel Mr. Fun running to this thread now.

	07-02-2003 20:27									#38
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International treaties that the US accepts are the laws of the land. That's why Texas' border is at the Rio Grande instead of the Nueces.

Besides, it's simply morally wrong to the extreme for a state to kill someone.

	07-02-2003 20:30									#39
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand State's rights.

the last thing i think this thread needs is states rights/civil war/slavery/ argument

The US is te soverign body which signs international treaties, unless they are declared unconstitutional surley the States have to abide by them

	07-02-2003 20:30									#40
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I can already feel Mr. Fun running to this thread now.

I know.
I wrote it because it was true, but I thought the same as I wrote it.

	07-02-2003 20:32									#41
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quote: The question is, should the US abide by international laws all the time, or only when it is advantagous to do so?

You are asking Floyd, UR... what do you think he'll say .

	07-02-2003 20:33									#42
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd the US can't do a lot about what Texas does, provided Texas isn't violating the Constitution.

I would assume that the Federal Government is allowed to sue individual states in order block the the execution of inmates denied thier treaty rights under the Constitution.

PS Start your own thread Ramo. This thread isn't about how authoritarian or moral the death penalty is.

	07-02-2003 20:36									#43
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger unless they are declared unconstitutional surley the States have to abide by them

The States claim, quite reasonablly IMO, that they are sovereign entities under the Constitution with the absolute right to anyone who breaks state law under state procedures.

	07-02-2003 20:37									#44
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I was addressing Floyd. I was under the impression that for him, morality supercedes law.

	07-02-2003 20:37									#45
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So any treaty signed by the US government is in essence worthless

	07-02-2003 20:40									#46
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quote: The States claim, quite reasonablly IMO, that they are sovereign entities under the Constitution with the absolute right to anyone who breaks state law under state procedures.

They can't violate the Supremacy clause. States certainly do not have such absolute rights.

	07-02-2003 20:44									#47
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quote: They can't violate the Supremacy clause. States certainly do not have such absolute rights.

The Supremecy Clause doesn't apply here. The treaty was for the formation of a court. It said nothing about the member states having to be bound by decision of that court.

Further more, the states can violate the Supremecy Clause if the executive doesn't wish to enforce the law (and he doesn't have to according to seperation of powers).

	07-02-2003 20:45									#48
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Incidently, has this issue ever been raised before SCOTUS in a death penalty appeal because that would put the issue to rest pretty quickly.

	07-02-2003 20:47									#49
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So the treaty under which child custody orders of for example the UK are upheld in the US in the event of a kidnap or death of a parent can be ignored by an individual state in the US if it wants.

If that is the case it really is very worrying

	07-02-2003 20:49									#50
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I would assume that the Federal Government is allowed to sue individual states in order block the the execution of inmates denied thier treaty rights under the Constitution.

Usually, it's the prisoner who appeals to the U.S. government. In Gideon v. Wainwright (dramatized as "Gideon's Trumpet" starring Henry Fonda), Gideon applied for a writ of cert from the U.S. Supreme Court because the state wouldn't supply him with a lawyer to defend against a burglary charge. That was the case which gave rise to the responsibility of states to provide free legal counsel to criminal defendants is state courts.

In the Mudd case, the Supreme Court extended the "exclusionary rule" to state courts, so that D.A.'s could not use illegally obtained evidence.

Imran's right...at least in a way. If no treaty gives the World Court the power to overturn state court verdicts, then that was not the tribunal for these prisoners to turn to. They shudda been heading to the U.S. Supreme Court to argue their convictions were obtained in violation of international treaties to which the U.S. has agreed.

	07-02-2003 20:53									#51
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger If that is the case it really is very worrying.

Yeah that worries me to about the Germans. Oh I'm sorry we were talking about the US ignoring child custody orders. Silly me.

	07-02-2003 20:54									#52
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There's an international agreement on consular protection.

The US, and that is all levels of governemnt, is bound by the treaty, regardless of its internal law.

The treaty is self-executing (yes, I know the puns). It is part of federal law. If it weren't, the US is under an obligation to adapt domestic law accordingly.

The US SC has effectively voided the agreement by calling it not material in criminal cases. Given the role access to lawyers plays in the US criminal courts, this line is bizarre in the extreme.

Given the chronic violations by the US, other parties have the right to cede application of the agreement wrt US citizens. So far this has not been done, but it should be seriously considered.

As for the ICJ, I'd have to check the jurisdiction issues. IIRC the US accepted its jurisdiction regarding the agreement on consular protection.

	07-02-2003 20:54									#53
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quote: So the treaty under which child custody orders of for example the UK are upheld in the US in the event of a kidnap or death of a parent can be ignored by an individual state in the US if it wants.

No... see the difference is in the wording of the treaties.

The ICJ treaty does NOT specify that member states must abide by its judgments (if that were the case the US would never have signed on).

The treaty you are refering to does mandate something and thus must be followed.

	07-02-2003 20:56									#54
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quote: The Supremecy Clause doesn't apply here. The treaty was for the formation of a court. It said nothing about the member states having to be bound by decision of that court.

Hmmmm interesting. That explains a lot.

	07-02-2003 20:56									#55
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Zkribbler: Should I take your post as a really backhanded way of saying that you don't know if it has ever been brought up as an issue before SCOTUS?

	07-02-2003 20:58									#56
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler The US SC has effectively voided the agreement by calling it not material in criminal cases. Given the role access to lawyers plays in the US criminal courts, this line is bizarre in the extreme.

Do you remember the case? I'd be interested in reading the opinion.

	07-02-2003 20:59									#57
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DD - I would be surprised if it had. Texas would [probably] not be operating in violation of a Supreme Court ruling.

	07-02-2003 20:59									#58
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"That explains a lot."

It explains about nothing.

	07-02-2003 20:59									#59
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I'm trying to get MarkG to stock these, but being a Greek, and you know how THEY are...

	07-02-2003 21:04									#60
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I think it was Breard, but I may be thinking of another case. I only read this a while ago.

This should address it, can't be arsed to read it now though.

http://www.asil.org/ajil/agora5.htm