07-02-2003 21:10									#61
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If the US does not abide by foreign treates it has signed, why the hell should the world abide by its own treaties?

Personally, I would love to use this excuse to throw NAFTA, the NPT , GATT, etc. out the window

	07-02-2003 21:12									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen why the hell should the world abide by its own treaties?

We're only executing the murderers you ship over here as revenge for stealing our water.

	07-02-2003 21:41									#63
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc We're only executing the murderers you ship over here as revenge for stealing our water.

Actually we're just relocating the murderers, and getting water from the territory you stole first.

	07-02-2003 21:42									#64
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You mean the land which you stole from the natives?

Anyways it's in treaty... so its legally ours now .

	07-02-2003 21:47									#65
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Mexico continues to steal water.
Canada too, probably, but I have no proof.
Not that I particularly need proof.

	07-02-2003 22:11									#66
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Oh, and the US didn't steal land from the natives either?

Treaties signed at gunpoint are far from being just or morally valid.

	07-02-2003 22:22									#67
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Where did Canadians get their land ?

	07-02-2003 23:15									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Doesn't this occur anytime the Federal government signs a treaty with another country? Is there a treaty signed by the US government which explicitly requires that the government of Mexico be informed when their citizens are arrested or under trial? Which treaty specifies this?

Consular protection treaties.

Requires a miranda-type warning that you have the right to contact a representative of your government and has the same restrictions as contacting a lawyer (any questioning needs to be stopped, yada yada yada).

Feel secure in the knowledge that if you're ever charged in a foreign country you have that right. I'm sorry to say that apparently the same does not apply in the US.

	07-02-2003 23:21									#69
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That is total b.s.

	07-02-2003 23:31									#70
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quote: On Tuesday, Texas executed John "Jackie" Elliott, a dual British-American citizen whose cause was taken up by British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw, members of parliament and high-ranking British clerics.

Why would consular protections apply in this instance? Or was this an unrelated incident thrown into the article?

	07-02-2003 23:32									#71
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Its hard to find actual facts to back anything up with but I found one short link saying that the US has admitted to violating the Vienna convention in this matter. It seems to me that a federal treaty would have precedence over states rights.

Of the three convicted men, Fierro's case is the best known. He was 22 when he was convicted of the Feb. 27, 1979, shooting death of an El Paso taxi driver, Nicolas Castanon. Despite a ruling in a Texas appeals court that his confession was probably coerced, he was not granted a retrial. Fierro has been on death row in Texas longer than any other inmate.

Ramos, 48, was sentenced to death in February 1992 for killing his wife Leticia and his two youngest children, Abigail, 8, and Jonathan, 3, with a hammer.

Aguilera was convicted for the July 12, 1993, slayings of Francisco Morales and Maria Yanez during a burglary in Oklahoma City.

Real winners. Hopefully texas and oklahoma will act before the feds (which is what often happens in these cases).

	07-02-2003 23:35									#73
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand That is total b.s.

What, the treaty or the fact that the US violates it fairly regularly?

	07-02-2003 23:37									#74
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc quote: On Tuesday, Texas executed John "Jackie" Elliott, a dual British-American citizen whose cause was taken up by British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw, members of parliament and high-ranking British clerics. Why would consular protections apply in this instance? Or was this an unrelated incident thrown into the article?

I'm not aware of the details of that case, but I would assume that he was not given the option to contact a representative of the UK, which he has a right to because he holds British citizenship.

	07-02-2003 23:39									#75
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"Feel secure in the knowledge that if you're ever charged in a foreign country you have that right. "

This.

	07-02-2003 23:40									#76
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The treaty isnt bs. What's bs is the fact that this is merely a blatant attempt by foreign anti-death-sentence wienies to interfere in internal US matters

	07-02-2003 23:42									#77
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dp

Last edited by DinoDoc on 07-02-2003 at 23:49

	07-02-2003 23:43									#78
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But are we required to afford him consular protections given that he was an American citizen as well while he was alive? What does the Vienna Convention say about dual citizens?

	07-02-2003 23:48									#79
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The treaty doesnt give them consular protection as in 'diplomatic immunity'. It simply says that the persons home country is to be informed that one of their citizens has been arrested so that they may provide legal services if they wish.

Imagine you get arrested on a bogus charge while backpacking through Columbia. You might want the US government to know that you're there.

	08-02-2003 01:59									#80
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quote: Treaties signed at gunpoint are far from being just or morally valid.

	08-02-2003 02:03									#81
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc But are we required to afford him consular protections given that he was an American citizen as well while he was alive? What does the Vienna Convention say about dual citizens?

I get the feeling that it's not dependant on you not being a citizen of the country you were charged in, but rather being a citizen of a foreign country.

Slowwhand, get arrested in Canada or the UK (or even Mexico) and you'll be surprised that they do abide by the treaty for the most part. So unless you think that systemic violation of it in Shitsville, Africa is cause to nullify it wrt citizens of every other country, what's your point?

	08-02-2003 02:07									#82
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"All the world" isn't just Canada.
And I'll dispute your assertion on Mexico.
Lastly, where do you think "Miranda Rights" originated?
It wasn't Canada, but that's the only clue you get.

	08-02-2003 02:10									#83
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Sweetheart, I was providing a reference for you to compare to. I don't know whether the US was the first one to offer rights of the accused of the level of the Miranda warning or not, and I suspect you don't either.

	08-02-2003 02:12									#84
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IIRC Miranda was won in 1960 something.

Oh, and please explain to me why you violate it in cases of citizens of First World nations. I'd like you to note that in all previous posts to the one you quoted I was careful to limit my argument to First World countries.

So until then, is it fair if I look on the US as a nation of promise-breakers?

	08-02-2003 02:16									#85
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Look at it how you want.
You said Mexico, I said you're wrong. That sums it up.

	08-02-2003 02:18									#86
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Blurg. You guys are as bad as the Saudis.

	08-02-2003 02:27									#87
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SlowwHand:

your government makes a HUGE fuss whenever a US citizen is arrested and tried in Mexico. Since you haven't actually lived here or heard tales about this situation, I would advise you not to jump to conclusions.

And yes, it is very unfair that the US does what the hell it wants with foreign nationals when it demands other countries to treat Americans as if they were something special.

First thing a US citizen says abroad when they're arrested:

"IM AN AMERICAN!!!"

	08-02-2003 03:27									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Actually we're just relocating the murderers, and getting water from the territory you stole first.

Um... the US didnt steal your land, we conquered it

	08-02-2003 03:29									#89
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It was a combined effort. We must give the Texans thier proper due for getting the ball rolling for us.

	08-02-2003 03:30									#90
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Oh great. Pissed off the Canadians. Pissed off the Mexicans.