09-02-2003 00:50									#1
	Lux Invicta Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Had a good chat with Trip on IRC. Hope what I said is acceptable to you all......


Session Start: Sat Feb 08 19:35:10 2003
Session Ident: Trip
(redstar1) any more developments in your part of the world?
(Trip) what part do I live in? LoL
(redstar1) was on about the DG
(Trip) ah
(Trip) which team do you hail from?
(redstar1) LEgoland, I'm Foreign minister
(redstar1) for all the point that is
(redstar1)
(Trip) ahhhh
(Trip) I see
(Trip) you guys seem to be doing quite well lately
(Trip) I'm impressed
(Trip) being all alone though, it won't last much longer
(redstar1) dunno about that
(redstar1) scores are ok but hard to tell when we have no contact
(redstar1) oh? planning on paying us a visit?
(Trip) hehe
(Trip) perhaps
(Trip) no clue where you guys are though
(redstar1) aye, we ain't so sure ourselves
(redstar1) looking forward to doing a bit of trading though
(Trip) hehe
(Trip) we were planning to go naval soon
(Trip) perhaps we could look for you
(redstar1) well I think we are planning to send off a galley as soon as its possible
(Trip) how long might that be?
(redstar1) we have a suspicion of which way to go but nothings been decided
(redstar1) good question
(Trip) perhaps we could coordinate
(redstar1) certainly more than 10 turns away
(Trip) Lux is very interested in acquiring friendly contact with everyone
(redstar1) same with Legoland
(redstar1) sooner we get in contact the sooner we know where we stand lol
(Trip) hehe
(Trip) right
(redstar1) but i think we would certainly be interested in coordinating efforts re meeting up
(Trip) though I'm sure you're doing quite well
(Trip) how many cities do you have?
(redstar1) more than 2
(redstar1)
(Trip) so shy are we?
(Trip) we have 4
(redstar1) 5
(redstar1) just planted the 5th last turn
(redstar1) though we did pop a settler so that helped a good deal
(redstar1) i hear trouble is brewing on your continent
(Trip) ahhh
(Trip) yes, that's a possibility
(redstar1) nasty to run into it so early
(redstar1) i don't think we would be prepared for conflict early
(redstar1) though we have had our share of barbarians
(Trip) yep
(Trip) hehe
(Trip) we've had 2 barbs to deal with lately
(redstar1) bastards are everywhere
(Trip) quite exciting chases
(Trip) though other teams' scouts have lured them off
(redstar1) hmmm quite close then
(redstar1) i suppose the advantage is our units get to cut their teeth a bit
(redstar1) had some 'promotions'
(Trip) hehe
(Trip) that's good
(Trip) how big of a landmass are you on?
(redstar1) its big enough i suppose
(redstar1) we have uncovered it all
(redstar1) but there is a peninsuala area we are still working on
(redstar1) lots of dodgy terrain though
(redstar1) but then it will be the same for everyone
(Trip) yeah, probably
(Trip) we've been trying to cut civs off with our cities
(Trip) but it hasn't worked so well so far
(redstar1) god help us if some jammy bastard lands 20 squars of grassland
(Trip) LoL
(redstar1) no? things looking mangled over there then
(redstar1) the isolation thing is prob working out well for us
(redstar1) atm anyway
(Trip) for now
(Trip) yeah
(Trip) can you say where on the mini-map you are?
(Trip) we should have galleys reasonably soon
(redstar1) not so sure of our teams ability to out play some of you guys
(redstar1) we would probably be happy to trade minimaps
(redstar1) have to discuss with team though
(Trip) okay
(redstar1) but i'll post about it and see what the reaction is
(redstar1) should be favorable enough
(redstar1) we are pretty starved of info
(Trip) alright
(Trip) haha
(Trip) we're not
(Trip) we know where every civ is except you
(redstar1) anyways, i need to go out now, got a night of pizza and playstation2
(redstar1) yeah?
(redstar1) nice one
(redstar1) i'll pm you on poly sure when we have a proposal
(Trip) ahaha
(Trip) okay, great, thanks
(Trip) sounds good
(redstar1) nice one
(Trip) we hope to find you rather soon
(redstar1) nice chatting mate
(Trip) indeed
(redstar1) looking to use our miliatary might?
(redstar1) lol
(Trip) LoL
(Trip)
(Trip) nah, you're not GoW are ya ;P
(redstar1) lol
(redstar1) thankfully no
(redstar1) chat later

	09-02-2003 01:57									#2
	Re: Lux Invicta Remove this text

Just a couple of brief comments:

1) Our galley will be off exploring in 10 turns max from now, I believe (I do not mind what you said, I am just making sure our own members are well informed). Our MM research shall be finished shortly (1 turn, I think) before the galley will be ready in Panama and that will be in 10 turns.

2) I do not quite believe Luxes have four cities. Their score is not growing fast enough (at this stage of the game, the score is largely based on one's territory). My personal estimate is they are at three (and the last one has not been founded too long ago). This makes me somewhat careful to believe what Trip stated about other things, too... Anyone to check the F11 screens for evidence regarding settlers built by LI's capital?

3) Good thing you mentioned we have uncovered all of our landmass. It indirectly suggests it is not that large. However, due to our efficient route planning, we were able to chart it pretty fast, I think.

4) It certainly does not hurt to pretend we are not very self-assured, even if we believe we are doing great.

5) I would only agree to trade 3950 BC minimaps (Luxes built their capital only on turn 2, IIRC), certainly not the current ones (but that's obvious, I believe).

6) Knowing much more about how our landmass shapes, we might reconsider trading 4000BC minimaps with Voxes. They apparently are nowhere to pose a threat for us ATM.

Anyway, I am glad to see that our foreign affairs are getting a bit more lively.

	09-02-2003 02:52									#3
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Good comments. I wouldn't mind trading early minimaps with both Vox and Lux, though; it would be nice to know where everyone is.

	09-02-2003 09:39									#4
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I have heard that Lux is just south of Glory of War and perhaps have borders surrounding the southern half of Imperial City, which I think is GoW's capital. Of course, I don't trust anything completely, especially without a map (and not completely even with a map as I was saying in the chat that I have heard about people giving minimaps in PBEM games from entirely different games )

Was talking in the chat about Vox - Vondrack confirmed that while we have heard that Vox is near Gathering Storm, that info is not first hand as RP told us that GS implied that Vox is nearby. So I guess we really don't know where Vox is.

	09-02-2003 17:45									#5
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I agree trading the minimaps (4000BC or 3950BC) with the Lux and the Vox

	10-02-2003 08:35									#6
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I have really mixed feelings. I'm curious to know where Lux is, but I don't see how we could benefit. We already know which general direction to send our fleet. I don't see having a 4000 BC mini-map changing that decision.

If they send a boat out and manage to survive. They cannot miss our big continent. So they will find us with or without our mini-map.

The only positive I see is for future goodwill. Which is hard to measure.

I don't think we should trade at this time.

	13-02-2003 22:39									#7
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Well, judging from the general discussions out on the public board, I'm getting the impression that war has begun between GoW/Lux vs. ND. Also, with the RPers signing a non-agg. pact with ND, I wouldn't be suprised if it turns into a 2 on 2 soon enough. Have we gotten any confirmation of any of these events, or is this all just idle speculation?

More importantly, where do GS and Vox fit into all this?

	14-02-2003 04:02									#8
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

If GS and Vox are on their own continent, I doubt they'll be involved in such an early war. Only if a single civ gains a big upper hand would they want to intervene (to maintain balance of power).

	16-02-2003 20:05									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Apparently Lux are in great trouble. I wonder if they will survive.

If not, how does it change our situation?

	16-02-2003 20:19									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Apparently Lux are in great trouble. I wonder if they will survive. If not, how does it change our situation?

Quite likely, it would put us more in the same boat with RPers, possibly requiring our direct military involvement in their part of the world (even if only as a peacekeeping force). I would consider it very likely, that after Luxes, GoW would be wiped out soon, as they are weak ATM and will remain weak even after the war. They would not last long next to the strong ND... and then, RPers would be the only obstacle preventing the Germans to conquer the whole of that continent.

I seriously hope Luxes hold on... I would even go to such an extent that I would try reaching them ASAP, bolstering their gold reserves, techs, or whatever they may need, just to keep them alive. Our long-term goal is to have others as balanced as possible, letting us make the best use of our large, isolated landmass...

	17-02-2003 01:34									#11
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I frankly don't think Luxes will last that long to allow us to contact them. Even if we were able to do that, otherthan direct military help, anything else would be futile, IMHO.

But you are right. By the time we will be able to sail and we will have troops, it is likely that we'll need to help the RP to survive.

Radek, did you see the thread with the Voxes? I really need some help on that one. I'm hoping for Redstar's involvement, but in case he's busy, could you help (or anyone else) ?

	18-02-2003 03:32									#12
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I was trying to catch up on that thread. It looks like Vox is history; just a matter of time. And there is some ill will between the teams, but I guess thats expected.

In the distant future, if we need to help RP, then we must start planning....well I guess it's still to eary, but lets keep it in mind.

	18-02-2003 03:40									#13
	Remove this text

We will need a map of their teritorries, sooner or later. We could build a defensive ring to protect a part of their border and/or some of their cities, plus some deterrant offensive units and cannons. Assuming that we won't need those units.

Ah, this is so far away.

	20-02-2003 20:56									#14
	Full PM-box? Change here!

OK, guys, better pay close attention to this. It's VERY important news.

Earlier today, I have been contacted by Trip of Luxes over IRC. Over a private channel, we had the following discussion. I am including the log here in its entirety (it is edited only to remove irrelevant kidding and spamlike lines), so as you know what exactly was said:

quote: Session Start: Thu Feb 20 05:20:02 2003 Session Ident: CMD_Trip [05:20] Session Ident: CMD_Trip (Trip-@inge68092.halls.colostate.edu) [05:20] I have a few things to discuss with you as well [05:59] yeah? [05:59] Lux will soon be searching for you [05:59] going naval? [05:59] knowing a bit about the layout of your continent to help find you would be helpful [05:59] yep [05:59] saving a settler? [06:00] or two [06:01] hmmm... that is something I will have to consult with my team [06:01] we do have some extra room here [06:01] but they feel quite strongly about it [06:01] [06:01] LoL [06:01] what are they going to do, attack? [06:02] "Legoland declares war on fleeing refugees" [06:02] :O [06:05] what is your continent like? [06:06] Trip, how far from your capital your landmass extends to the East? [06:06] trying no tricks [06:06] just figuring what would be [06:06] the best route for you [06:07] west, you mean? [06:07] quite far [06:07] quite far indeed [06:07] I meant EAST [06:07] our capital is soon to be relocated as well [06:07] right [06:07] to the right on the map [06:07] how far to the east? [06:07] yes [06:07] it goes a fair ways east [06:07] 10 or 12 tiles [06:08] hmmm... that's bad [06:08] there is a BIG ocean between us in this direction [06:08] hold on [06:08] so the only way to us would be around your landmass, eastwards [06:09] we're moving our civ west [06:09] to the west side of our continent [06:09] before we shove off [06:09] still room there? [06:09] it's a plan we're working out [06:09] we'll discuss that later though probably [06:09] anyways [06:10] well, then [06:10] you will get fairly close [06:10] I'll send you a mini-map part showing how far west our continent goes [06:10] the sea between your and our landmasses [06:10] I predict it's fairly close, but I don't know the shape of your continent [06:10] is like 5-6 tiles, I think [06:10] it may be narrow enough to be crossed by a galley [06:10] at some point [06:10] not sure though [06:10] haven't spotted any such place yet [06:11] impressive [06:11] I wouldn't doubt it [06:11] could you perhaps draw on your minimap the general shape of your continent? [06:11] and I'll do the same, so we can create a path [06:11] hmmm... I do not think Lego will be eager to reveal the shoreline [06:12] but if you send us yours [06:12] we will tell you what the possibilities [06:12] are [06:12] sorry if this sounds harsh [06:12] :P [06:12] but then, we are not that eager to have a neighbour [06:12] :P [06:12] [06:12] we'll find our way there either way [06:13] oh, I am sure of that [06:13] we will be waiting [06:13] it may be up to you to put us somewhere, or we'll find our own place [06:13] ok... I will have to discuss it with the team and that will take a day [06:13] okay [06:14] Lux will be willing to work as complete partners with Lego [06:14] will get back to you with our decision [06:14] and we have no hostile intentions in the least [06:14] [06:14] trust no one... [06:14] hehe [06:14] no offense meant [06:15] what is Lego's strategy for this game? [06:15] (aside from building) [06:15] to win [06:15] [06:15] besides that too :P [06:15] be nice to every good guy and kick ass of every bad guy [06:16] still hesitating which one YOU are though... [06:16] so are you going to be violent? [06:16] if needs be, we will fight [06:16] will you ATTACK? [06:17] in case we consider it the right thing to do, yes [06:17] * CMD_Trip gasps [06:17] builders PREFER building [06:17] but they do not fear war [06:17] * CMD_Trip posts thread "Legoland attacks fleeing refugees!" [06:17] hehe [06:17] that would be funny [06:17] "Drowning Luxes!" [06:17] hehe [06:18] :O [06:18] * CMD_Trip is offended! [06:18] Oops... sorry... [06:18] this means war! [06:18] erm, wait, no [06:18] nevermind [06:18] I take that back [06:18] hehe [06:18] yes, not the best way to negotiate right now [06:18] is your situation so untenable? [06:19] I mean is there no chance against ND? [06:19] ND is out to conquer the continent [06:19] GoW is the unlucky ones, at least we get away ^^ [06:19] yes, that seems apparent [06:20] anyway, I will talk to the team and see if there a will to help you, ok? [06:20] one thing is [06:20] wanting to have you around [06:20] as long as possible [06:20] another thing is [06:20] to have right next door [06:20] [06:20] so that's what I have to consult [06:20] hehe [06:21] ok, then, I will PM you or catch you on IRC [06:21] good luck until then [06:21] okay, thanks [06:35] I have a minimap ready for you, in case you return alive [06:38] shhhhhh [06:38] [06:39] we'll be coming from the northern part of the blob [06:44] hmmm.... superimposed your minimap... that's quite hopeless [06:44] what? [06:44] there are at least 10-12 tiles of water [06:45] between our landmasses over there in the North [06:45] not even GLh would be enough [06:45] though [06:45] did GoW see any island off their coast? [06:45] we haven't [06:46] dunno [06:46] what about in the south? [06:46] no idea [06:46] all we can see [06:46] is just ocean [06:47] actual ocean tiles? [06:47] just a sec, I will check [06:47] okay [06:52] well [06:52] I can't say be sure [06:52] most of what we have revealed so far [06:53] was the ordinary coast and then sea tiles [06:53] hmmm [06:53] we were not following the very coast though [06:53] what is the shape of your continent in the north and in the south? [06:53] but a hill range [06:53] one tile inland [06:53] from what we have seen so far [06:53] there is a lot of water there [06:53] at least that's our best guess [06:54] how far away from the coast is your capital? [06:54] and what is the shape of your coastline? [06:54] perhaps it's closer further south [06:54] approximately NW to SE (the coastline) [06:54] between NW-SE and NS [06:54] so it goes E as it goes down? [06:54] yes [06:54] much more down than E [06:55] could you draw a line on my map to show what your coastline is like please? [06:55] I can then judge whether or not it's possible [06:55] not until approved by the team [06:55] bah [06:55] I do not THAT much power as you do... [06:55] yeah yeah :P [06:55] how far from the coast is your capital [06:56] three tiles [06:56] cap-tile-tile-tile-water [06:56] really? [06:56] from your minimap it looks like all land to me [06:57] unless I'm reading it wrong [06:57] the minimap we traded looked like land [06:57] but it did not cover anything beyond a 2-tile radius [06:57] that's why you can't see the water [06:58] you mean the BORDER of the capital, then tile tile tile water? [06:58] nope [06:58] capital tile [06:58] well your border looks like it covers all land [06:58] and we can see 1 tile outside your territory [06:58] and it all looks like land to me.... [06:59] its cap_tile-tile-tile-tile-water in the EtoW direction [06:59] oh, okay [06:59] five tiles inbetween in the SWtoNE direction [07:00] one more question [07:00] ? [07:00] then I'll leave ya alone [07:00] quickly [07:00] how far south does your continent go? [07:00] far [07:00] very far? [07:01] look, I am not going to send you an image. To be honest, we do not want you to be interested in our South. [07:02] we got some crappy land for the starters [07:02] okay

Now, what we can tell now:

1) Luxes currently consider "not losing" the war completely (i.e. getting eliminated) by packing their bags and fleeing out of their landmass. It is difficult to say, how close they are to Map Making or how realistic this plan is... anyway, it is a possibility (and quite frankly, I have been thinking about this possibility before - if I were them, I would at least consider it, too).
2) Luxes know very little about the southern part of the world. They know nothing about the southern part of our continent.
3) The Northern part of the Bob continent is separated from ours by a large body of water.

I suggest we do not panick and stick to our plans. I do doubt they would be able to do what they consider, but even if they do adopt the plan it would take them many turns to actually get to us anyway - and they will certainly not be having more than two galleys (most probably just one), which means 1-2 settlers plus 1-2 escort units (spearmen, warriors, or archers - had they have swordsmen, they would use them against ND). That would be SO easy to get rid of even with our limited military that we need not to worry.

So, the only question now is: do we try to help them survive or not? I have been thinking this dilemma over and over for most of today and here is my final conclusion (it's not a decision by any means - just my opinion about what we shall do):

1) Offer them a refuge on Legos Minor. That part of our landmass has little really good land, lots of mountains... we would be settling it only very late anyway - Legos Major is enough for us to win the game. Letting Luxes to have their small state there should do us no harm. Actually, I would rather have weak Luxes there than an overseas colony of another, much stronger team.

2) Make it very clear that if they land anywhere on Legos Major, we will attack them immediately. Let's make it our official stance - Legos Major is taboo for LI. Any landing will be considered an automatic declaration of war. (And we shall actually be ready to attack shall they try landing and settling there).

3) Offer them all techs common among other teams for free once they settle on Legos Minor. So that they can actually be of some use to us later.... also to make them feel less worried about turns lost while circumnavigating their and later our landmass.

Benefits:

A team weak enough to be no threat to us (just keep in mind what we will be when they finally make it to Legos Minor!), yet useful for working out resource/lux trades with third parties not willing to deal with us directly, for triggering our GA at the perfect moment, for joint research...

The other way round is we turn them down - that would most probably result in Luxes telling the others we have something to hide (unlike if Luxes plan settling in Legos Minor - that would make them keep their mouths shut). It might also possibly end up in them settling "wildly" somewhere in the South of Legos Major. We would be able to get rid of them, no doubt, but we'd have to wage an aggresive war that would most likely be perceived as an evil thing by other teams (since it would be us, and not ND to strike the killing blow. A war might mess with our REX plans and could actually slow us down unnecessarily. Besides, there is that sentence about "the better world" in our Constitution...

OK, comment now, please.

And I will repeat this once again - I suggest we do NOT alter our plans. Let's keep Jackson building the GLib and Panama going for another wonder (most probably The Pyramids), plus keep Legopolis and Farmerville in the REX mode. The only change I would consider is sending the first Farmerville settler not to the Forkmouth area, but to the SE coast... but that's a different thing we may discuss later.

Oh, and here is the minimap Trip sent me, merged with our latest minimap:



The blobby shape over there is what Trip marked as part of their continent. No idea about if it is the "visible area" or the real landmass though. I do not think it really matters anyway...

	20-02-2003 21:34									#15
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interesting discussion. Trip has been trying to get hold of me on IRC for a couple of days but I haven't been around for one reason or another.....

I can understand their want to get away, and knowing of Trip's reputation as an excellent Civer I can only imagine that he knows they will lose any war to ND...

I certainly don't think our plan should alter at all, at least not until something drastic happens and we will endeavor to ensure that doesn't occur.

I think we are fair enough in claiming all of the continent we have as 'ours'. However we have to settle it ourselves first. I suggest that the next settler should migrate to the se, where there are at least 2 excellent spots for building another settler farm. I don't think this should delay the plan at all but we might even want to look into sending settlers out unescorted, but staging our scout warriors at intervals along the way to pick up any trouble that might arise.

As for LI. I'm not wholy against the idea of them using Legos Minor as a staging post, or a last retreat. But I think we would have to put some fairly stringent controls on how they get there and what they do there. There is probably room for 2 decent cities (with harbours) and 1 or 2 other ones but its certainly something that needs to be discussed at length both here and with LI.

	20-02-2003 21:36									#16
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I would say that in the event they do manage to reach our continent, giving them Legos Minor would be the best course. I mean the good land on Legos Minor is so far from Legopolis that most of its benefits would be lost. Thats aside from the possibility that someone would settle it anyway before we could get to it. This wayed against the benefits of having our own vassal makes a deal thats hard to pass up.

	20-02-2003 21:45									#17
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by redstar1 As for LI. I'm not wholy against the idea of them using Legos Minor as a staging post, or a last retreat. But I think we would have to put some fairly stringent controls on how they get there and what they do there. There is probably room for 2 decent cities (with harbours) and 1 or 2 other ones but its certainly something that needs to be discussed at length both here and with LI.

I do agree that stringent controls would be a must. Go ahead and throw your ideas in. I shall be talking to Trip later today, so anything we can come up with may be proposed and pre-discussed soon (no final deals made, though). Some ideas crossing my mind:

1) no or very limited navy
2) will allow a spy to be placed, once it becomes an option
3) a carved-in-stone border on the isthmus they would not be allowed to even approach with a military unit

q_m makes a good point about the wasted potential of Legos Minor... while we would be wasting most of what can be sucked from that part of our landmass due to the distance from Legopolis, Luxes would make most of it, running a small, tighly packed empire. That would maximize our combined power - they would most probably never try attacking us (the isthmus would be almost unpenetrable), but if going with us against a common enemy, they might come in handy.

	20-02-2003 21:59									#18
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I'll see if I can get online later and maybe get involved in that discussion

I certainly think it would be worthwhile putting the idea across...

	20-02-2003 22:04									#19
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As I mentioned during the chat last night, I do not think we should alter any of our plans either. At minimum, it will take the Luxes at least 25-30 turns to get anywhere close to our lands. By the time they arrive, Forkmouth should be up and running, and I would like to see a city placed in the SE portion of our lands to form a new eastern port.

As for giving them refuge on Legos minor, it is feasable, but with very strong conditions attached.

quote: 1) no or very limited navy 2) will allow a spy to be placed, once it becomes an option 3) a carved-in-stone border on the isthmus they would not be allowed to even approach with a military unit

These are good, but there are some mitigating circumstances...

-The mountains and hills on Legos minor could proved to be a source of iron and coal in time, and we have no idea what sort of strat. resources we have on our mainland. In the event we have no iron, we don't want the Luxes settled on our closest source. If that were to happen, they could easily decide to trash any agreements with us since they would have the advantage. I think we will have iron and whatnot on the mainland, but it is something to consider.

-We still do not know how far/close the Vox/GS continent is to the west. If it turns out to be somewhat close, do we want Lux serving as the middleman between us and two other civs?

All in all, I guess I'm undecided at the moment. If they agreed to the conditions, they would be hemmed in quite effectively, with the potential of serving as a good ally. However, if another team were to get to them sometime in the future and convince them to turn on us, we'd have an enemy on our doorstep, essentially.

Of course, this is all tempered by the fact that Lux will probably never even make it to our lands

	21-02-2003 00:04									#20
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I'd be okay with giving them Legos Minor, as long as they agree to our conditions. You might add gifting us all techs we don't have that they do upon first contact, though that might be pushing them a little too far; they may not be powerful, but if we propose this deal, we'll be essentially admitting they can became a big problem for us if want. And since they probably realize they don't have a chance at winning if they have to start over, I think a refugee Lux team's allegiance would simply depend on who they like most...

Edit: And if we do want to push them - though as I said, our "permission" for a cruddy little empire may not be much to a defeated team - their WM is another good thing to ask for. It would be really helpful to get part of Bob's geography; in fact, I'd put that as a higher priority demand than techs, which we can always trade for.

	21-02-2003 00:14									#21
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Yeah, their map should be requested, that's a good idea. It will be of no use to them anyway, and almost to no immediate use to us, but it would be valuable in the long run.

Perhaps we might offer exchanging their worldmap for the map of Legos Minor once we are done charting it (should be within 10 turns)?

	21-02-2003 03:36									#22
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Indeed. Maps are always helpful to have, and as you pointed out, it's not doing them any good anymore...

	21-02-2003 03:37									#23
	Inflate your Upload Space

I think it's a GOOD idea to give them Legos Minor. We could never make much use of it.

We could come to an agreement on the techs. We will have some techs that they do not and maybe they have some we need. I don't see this as a sticking point.

I would like an agreement on Iron. If we have none and they have 2, then they should gift us the extra. If we have none and they have 1.....we'll need to discuss this.

Let's not limit their Navy too much. After all, this is all they have. If they are a true allie, then a resonably strong Navy would be of benefit.

Definitely make it plain that if they land on Legos Major, we will war.

	21-02-2003 12:46									#24
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I agree to give them refuge on Legos Minor, with the following observations:

1. We must sign a treaty, carved in stone, save the PMs, whatever, so keep the proof that they agreed with our conditions (to avoid later discussions, that they approved this but not that, etc)

2. They will be never, not now, not later, allowed to land on Legos Major. Such action would lead automatically to war

3. carved-in-stone border on the isthmus they would not be allowed to approach within, let's say 3 tiles;

4. They declare and sign that they will never ever sign a treaty against us (like a trade embargo or such)

5. Full tech exchange between them and us once they land (everything they have vs. everything we have)

6. Once we make contact, exchange their world map with the map of Legos the minor

7. should they discover resources we don't have on Legos Minor, first they ask us for a trade and only then the others

8. They should be forbidden to make public their new geographical position, to exchange minimaps with others or conduct any diplomacy that would compromise our security (until we say them that they can; that should be after we colonized the entire continent).

9. We should be allowed at any time to keep or move troops on their territorry. (UN observers )

I don't agree on the no-navy clause; on the contrary; we want them to expand (if they can) on other continents

That's it, I think. Finally, a word of warning: don't ever trust them. Everything we agree should be very precise, written and signed.

Last edited by Tiberius on 21-02-2003 at 12:53

	21-02-2003 15:07									#25
	Got spare money?

I don't like the idea of haveing too many restrictions. They are already handcuffed in many respects. If we have too many restrictions, we can are asking for some violations.

I suppose we can start with all of Tiberius' demands and then negotiate down a bit.

Now that I re-read Tiberius' demands, they aren't so bad. I only disagree with 3 and 9. I don't think we need a demilitarized zone. Any I think it's too much to have our troops patrolling their territory. Further, we have no need to be in their territory.

	21-02-2003 15:31									#26
	Got spare money?

Well, that 9 would be an unilateral RoP (and furthermore, we let them on our teritorry, so we demand the freedom to move freely on our former teritorries; * sigh * nostalgy, what can we do ).

As for 3, indeed, it is not very important, but it would be an early warning for us, should they ever rebell.

Last edited by Tiberius on 21-02-2003 at 15:38

	21-02-2003 21:32									#27
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I think that it might be a good idea to draft an agreement up to cover this potential 'arrangement'. Bear in mind though that Lux are at least 40 turns away from landing on Legos Minor and it may all become academic. Still, it doesn't hurt to be prepared....


Legos Agreement (First Draft)

1. Legoland claims all territory currently uncovered, and such territory that may be uncovered in the future. that is part of our continent/island.

2. Legoland distinguishes Legos Major as continuous territory east of Angus' Neck. Legos Minor is distinguished as all continuous territory west of Angus' Neck.

3. Legoland regard Legos Major as sacred territory and reserve exclusive right to settle on this land. Legoland reserves the right to use force to expel any foreign agent(s) discovered on Legos Major.

4. Legoland is prepared to offer exclusive right to settle on Legos Minor to the Lux Invicta tribe under the conditions set out below:

- Lux Invicta recognise the sovereignty of Legos Major as exclusively that of Legoland and promise not to attempt to cross Angus' Neck.

- Lux Invicta recognise the right of Legoland to station 'observers' on Legos Minor at arranged intervals to ensure the conditions of this treaty are not threatened.

- Lux Invicta sign a non-agression pact with Legoland to ensure that hostilities are not an option, and also to ensure that Lux Invicta do not disclose information to other Nations that may impinge on Legoland's national security.

5. In addition to these conditions, Legoland is openminded about cooperation with Lux Invicta and strives for a close alliance.





Well I think thats the basics for now. Further discussions with Lux will bring up more but until then i think we can discuss among ourselves what is acceptable and what is not.

	21-02-2003 21:52									#28
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I definitely want (urge, to be clear) to include in any treaty all of our demands, not just a general outline (see my List of the 9 demands). I know that some of them you have included in your proposal, but I think all of them are reasonable and should be included in any agreement, even a preliminary one.

Besides, I'm against point 5. Yes, we are openminded for cooperation with anybody, including the Luxes, but shouldn't we wait to meet them and see what kind of people/civ they are before we commit ourselves in a long-term alliance?

	22-02-2003 00:43									#29
	Tired of ads?

Yeah, I agree with your points, I just didn't add them but I will do for draft 2 with your permission of course.

The thing about point 5 is that its only active if we both agree to the whole thing, by which time we will know if we want to co-operate.

	22-02-2003 00:51									#30
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I would like specific agreements on tech exchange.