22-02-2003 03:02									#31
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I agree with lmtoops; we may push them too far with 9 (4b in redstar's draft). However, I think we should have a set boundary; perhaps it should be in the mountains just past the desert. After all, that area is a third chance at a domestic oil supply.

	22-02-2003 14:32									#32
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Push them ??? They are close to being exterminated and we are offering them refuge. Without our guidance they could (probably) never find land. We are their saviour, so to speak. In what way are we pushing them ? If we wanted to attack them, we could do it right when they land, why would we wait until later in the game? One or two units patroling their teritorry is hardly a danger. We send there 2 units, MercBlix and MercBaradei and this is it.

	22-02-2003 18:31									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Push them ??? They are close to being exterminated and we are offering them refuge. Without our guidance they could (probably) never find land. We are their saviour, so to speak. In what way are we pushing them ? If we wanted to attack them, we could do it right when they land, why would we wait until later in the game? One or two units patroling their teritorry is hardly a danger. We send there 2 units, MercBlix and MercBaradei and this is it.

Tibi, this is a matter of establishing good neighbourhood relationship. I do realize (and they do realize, too) that we are their saviour. However, if we force them too far - especially by including "humiliating" clauses like the obligation to let observing units freely enter their territory - there will be the feeling of bitterness left in them, instead of gratitude. That would make them a potential threat much more than anything else, especially more than granting them a good deal of "autonomy". They want to stay in the game to have some fun, even if ultimately out of the main race (maybe to have some kind of revenge on ND?). Making them our forever humbled colony would be no fun for them (would you be happy about such an agreement if you were them? it's a matter of elementary pride...).

I say, let's make a solid treaty, let's make sure we have guarantees, but let them have as much freedom (=>fun) as possible without compromising our own security. Keep in mind that by the time they finally land on Legos Minor, we will have like 9-10 great cities, while they will be founding their very first... they will never ever want to attack us unless feeling humiliated and/or bitter, because our retaliation strike would be their ultimate doom.

	22-02-2003 19:07									#34
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack However, if we force them too far - especially by including "humiliating" clauses like the obligation to let observing units freely enter their territory - there will be the feeling of bitterness left in them, instead of gratitude.

So limiting their navy to 0 or a very limited nr. of ships (your proposal) would not be humiliating, while a unilateral RoP would be?

Nevermind. I don't want this clause so badly. It was for the sake of our own safety. If I am the only one who want it, then forget it.

	22-02-2003 19:26									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius So limiting their navy to 0 or a very limited nr. of ships (your proposal) would not be humiliating, while a unilateral RoP would be?

That was a very bad idea of mine, I admit. I have realized this later when talking to Trip again. It was nothing he would say or such, but I realized that we have to let them keep their pride and some feeling of independence and freedom even if they become de facto our vassal state... otherwise, they might happily backstab on the very first occasion, hoping for territory gains.

OTOH, if their honour says that it would be utterly dishonest to attack us, it may very well serve us... pushing them a bit further from thoughts of treachery.

At least I hope so.

I talked to Trip several times in the past few days and I believe that even if he is cunning and never misses any opportunity, he is not immoral or something like that. He miscalculated and now faces the consequences... as a man, I would say.

	22-02-2003 20:44									#36
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I hope you won't make any agreement with Trip without our knowledge and/or approval, will you? If we agree with giving refuge to Lux on Legos Minor, I want this to happen in a legal, official way. I want a contract, that is. Not some verbal agreement, that yeah, yeah, come here and we'll talk later about the conditions.

Don' be fooled by Trip, thinking that they are finished now and will play only for fun. Once we will give them a new chance they will fight to win, just like anybody else in this game.

	22-02-2003 22:47									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius I hope you won't make any agreement with Trip without our knowledge and/or approval, will you?

Ehm... Tibi...?

I would never do any such thing, that goes without saying. The fact that I would like Luxes to be happy about the agreement does not mean I would be willing to trust them blindly...

OTOH, no treaty will ever make us secure, as any treaty can be breached. A treaty is good only for making sure that both parties understand what is the deal about and do not try to interpret it in their own favour. We will have to make sure that we are not vulnerable to any attacks from them, treaty or no treaty. What I was mentioning was that making them less likely to consider any treachery is important. The more happy they are about finding asylum at Legos Minor, the better for us.

So, let's try getting as much as possible while making a fair deal that will please both sides, shall we?

	22-02-2003 23:03									#38
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Agreed

	22-02-2003 23:18									#39
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What about this thought: Once they make landfall, in order to help them get on their feet, we will move a worker and a merc onto Legos Minor. The merc will be to help defend them from barbarians until they can defend themselves, at which point he will pull back to the chokepoint. The worker will be there to give them assistance in building an infrastructure, thanks to our industrious traits. They would tell us what they want, we would order him around.

The benefit of this plan is that while we are being helpful, we also will have "observers" within their borders, especially with the worker. The benefit of having our industrious worker around will outweigh the fact that we can see what they're doing. And, if I were them, I would definately appreciate the gesture.

	22-02-2003 23:32									#40
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Excellent idea, except we don't need observers that soon If we do that, they will have to kiss out feet for a year

	22-02-2003 23:48									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Excellent idea, except we don't need observers that soon If we do that, they will have to kiss out feet for a year

Agreed, this is a good idea. It would help them a lot and certainly make for a good start between our two teams. Our industrious worker would be able to get them up and running much faster, while providing us with some intel.

OTOH, Tibi is right that we will need very little intel when they are THAT weak. The real need will come much later, when they are established.

Perhaps... what about arranging some sort of a periodic deal for their world or territory map? Give them something in exchange, like a luxury or resource that we have enough of...? They would "report" their map and we would give them something useful, yet not that valuable for us in exchange, guaranteeing nobody will get their map from us.

	23-02-2003 03:37									#42
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Of course if everything is roaded, we can send in a Knight or other fast unit for a quick look, and have them out again without Lux even knowing.

	23-02-2003 20:07									#43
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This seems like a good deal to me.
Kind a like having a vassal state without the war.
BUt we have to watch them so they dont go expanding into Lego Major. Also I would wait on the workers to help them, maybe a road for trade at first and the rest latter, we got our own land mass to devolope, we dont need extra work.

I am worried that they might become a burrened to us in the future though.

	24-02-2003 06:58									#44
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OK, everybody, important news. Keep it top secret!

Luxes were - after being backstabbed again by GoW - saved from elimination by generous Voxes that sort of "leased" them one of their own coastal cities, allowing them to build a galley and a settler, before sailing towards our continent and returning the city back to Voxes.

This in turn means that our deal with Luxes is not a matter of "if/maybe", but a matter of "how" and "what price".

redstar, be so kind and start working on a treaty draft, please. I have asked Trip for their proposal, starting simply with a deal on trading the map of Legos Minor for their world map (once they make contact with us, I suppose).

Once again, keep this top secret!

	24-02-2003 10:34									#45
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Interesting... a quite unexpected development, to be sure. This will actually probably work in our favor, as this will increase the time required for Lux to arrive in our lands, giving us more time to firmly establish ourselves, and the terms of the agreement. Keeping this agreement secret is, of course, top priority.

And, this will also give us time to hopefully get iron working, to settle once and for all the issue of how many resources we have available...

	02-03-2003 05:20									#46
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I was looking through the demographic charts and noticed that we are now 6th in disease instead of 7th. Looking back we moved from 7th to 6th on the 1550 bc turn (on Feb 24th).

Interestingly Vox "leased" their city to Lux on Feb 23 and Lux's last city on the Bob continent was destroyed or razed soon afterwards.

It seems to me that our rise in the disease rankings is probably related to Lux's move and that the city that Vox gave them might be in the jungle (more so than we are) - One of the Luxians recently made the comment about the warmer climate that could prove that. If so we can make a fair estimate of where Lux may be on the map north or southwise... (and how long it will take them to get to Legos Minor)

Also, we can guess on our map where Vox stretches down south to based on the location of our jungle area. That would give us a reasonable estimate of their north-to-south territory at least (though we would still have no idea how big their east-west area is of course).

Just something to think about...

	02-03-2003 12:24									#47
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Shrewd observations, Steve! I missed that. Besides the new Lux city having some jungle around, we also know it is a coastal city, of course...

	05-03-2003 09:41									#48
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Question: Do we know what Lux has promised Vox for the city lease? (They must have given something for Vox to give up a city, even temporarily, this early in the game.)

	05-03-2003 12:44									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Question: Do we know what Lux has promised Vox for the city lease? (They must have given something for Vox to give up a city, even temporarily, this early in the game.)

Good question. I will ask Trip. As far as I know, the deal involved money (at least). Other than that, my understanding was that it was mostly a gesture of generosity. But I will check.

	06-03-2003 08:56									#50
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Woah! Bye bye Lux...

This means some major changes... for one, we should make some plans to settle Legos Minor.

Also, Lux will doubtless have refugees. Are we willing to take them in? I'd say as a pre-approved deal, no, but I'd certainly be willing to grant membership case-by-case. What's your opinion?

	06-03-2003 10:08									#51
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Yeah, kind of a sad, ignoble end for them...

As for taking refugees, I don't have a problem with it, but we should definately do it on a case by case basis, perhaps setting a predetermined limit. I like the size of the team the way it is now, and I wouldn't want to bring in too large an influx of new players. Maybe just 3 or 4, at most?

	06-03-2003 10:11									#52
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When I read the post the first time, the new hit me as if a REAL civilization was destroyed.

I had to remind myself that it's just a freaken game.

	06-03-2003 10:46									#53
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Wow

We must REX like mad. We certainly don't want the GoW to settle on Legos Minor, do we?

	06-03-2003 11:06									#54
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I feel pretty much like lmtoops...

And to be honest, this news fills me with a lot of bitterness. What dignity Voxes have to first offer refuge (getting high compensations for it) and then forcefully take the city back? What kind of "untenable" situation it was?

No idea... but I will talk to Trip and find out.

Anyway, that's how things are and we have to cope with them.

Personally, I would offer refuge to Trip and BigFurryMonster. But I will not push this in any way as I know you do not have the kind of personal experience with Trip I have, thus can very well be less then happy about taking him aboard. And I do agree that taking too many of Lux members is something we do not want... even 3-4 is too much, IMHO, considering how many of our people vote in our polls...

	06-03-2003 11:20									#55
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Sad news, indeed, especially that we offered refuge for Lux and we were already feeling about them as our little brother or something like this

About refugees: let's wait first for them to apply. They might not want to join Legoland. In case some of them do, we'll vote about them in a case by case basis. I'd say 3 new players max.

	06-03-2003 20:30									#56
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We need to be very selective. I think most of the members will want to join us for several reasons.
1. We are ahead
2. They have personal grudges against other teams
3. Legoland has plenty of land and room to grow.

Therfore, we can be very selective. I would prefer to have 2 new members, but if there is a good argument for a 3rd I would vote for membership.

	06-03-2003 21:10									#57
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I'm not fully sure about letting other members into the team.. I've always held that if you lose, you lose, game over. Maybe since Vox conquered them they could go to Vox but I'm not convinced about adding people to the team. Especially 2 main players from a team that seem to have mightily pissed everyone off

	06-03-2003 21:54									#58
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OK, here is a conspiracy theory based on absolutely no facts (the best kind ). Lux voluntarily gave up to Vox so they could join forces. They realized that surviving in Legos Minor was too much of a long shot and they would never be a force in the game.

So they converted their citizens into workers and settlers, traded their troops for shields, and gave their gold to Vox. Then they allowed Vox to retake the city.

What do you think?

	06-03-2003 22:00									#59
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I think you were the man behind the grassy knoll

No, seriously... theres obviously something thats gone on behind the scenes that we don't know about. Maybe Vox had other ideas, or justa change of heart. Maybe ND found out and signed an agreement with Vox to carve up the two continents between them if Vox killed off Lux. We may never find out....

In the meantime however we now have even more land to colonise so those settlers better start moving

	06-03-2003 23:48									#60
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OK, here is my morning chat with Trip:

quote: [07:20] vondrack|asleep_til_6amGMT what made Voxes betray you? [07:20] Trip[sleep] I don't know [07:20] vondrack|asleep_til_6amGMT no reason given? [07:20] Trip[sleep] just heard a couple hours ago [07:20] Trip[sleep] the situation was "untenable" [07:21] vondrack|asleep_til_6amGMT hmmm... read that [07:21] vondrack|asleep_til_6amGMT what kind of dignity and integrity this is? [07:21] vondrack|asleep_til_6amGMT u considering joining another team? [07:22] Trip[sleep] I don't know... their decision though [07:22] Trip[sleep] I don't think I'll join another team [07:22] vondrack|asleep_til_6amGMT any idea if you did something they might have considered to be justifying what they did? [07:22] Trip[sleep] there were lots of deals with many teams [07:22] Trip[sleep] they probably just got tired of it [07:23] vondrack|asleep_til_6amGMT hmmm... [07:23] Trip[sleep] figured it was too much trouble to keep us around [07:23] vondrack|asleep_til_6amGMT several members of our team expressed being quite unhappy about what happened [07:23] Trip[sleep] yes, it's too bad the way things turned out [07:24] Trip[sleep] sorry that we won't be able to hold to our end of the agreement... [07:24] vondrack|asleep_til_6amGMT oh... [07:24] vondrack|asleep_til_6amGMT no sorries needed [07:24] Trip[sleep] this is probably my fault [07:24] Trip[sleep] I should have seen it coming [07:24] vondrack|asleep_til_6amGMT the Vox betrayal? [07:24] Trip[sleep] the whole situation [07:25] vondrack|asleep_til_6amGMT well... [07:25] vondrack|asleep_til_6amGMT what happened [07:25] vondrack|asleep_til_6amGMT cannot be undone [07:25] vondrack|asleep_til_6amGMT just wanted to know if you had any idea [07:26] Trip[sleep] yes, that's true [07:26] Trip[sleep] things are done now [07:26] Trip[sleep] you know as much as I do at this point [07:26] Trip[sleep] and that's how things will stay, I imagine

Rethinking things, I now lean towards not letting anyone in... redstar1 is correct. Once you lose, you lose.