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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:25
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Sandman....apologies for the misquote.
Call the argument a strawman if you feel the need to, but it doesn't change the fact that the examples you gave are, in fact, surrounded by hostile powers that wish them ill. This speaks *directly* to the argument at hand whether you care to acknowledge it or not.
Does it mean that no democratic nation ever uses strongarm tactics? Of course not, and if you'll note in my posts, I never said that it did.
Re: Education - Is it a fair assumption that education is better than the alternative (ignorance)? Is it a fair assumption that a more informed populace is better able to make good decisions about such things as, whom to elect to govern them? An uneducated population is more easily swayed by propaganda, and this is especially bad in non-democratic societies, where the propaganda machine is likely controlled by a singular individual. Education prevents that, and lays the foundation for democracy to take root in. Education makes it possible for the people to see through propaganda. In these specific ways, education is a stabalizing influence.
It is certainly true that not every poor nation is a dictatorship. I only ask that you read what I post before you attempt to fashion arguments against it. Had you done so, you would have seen that I made no statements whatsoever about poor democratic nations (India, and others), but was speaking *directly* to newly democratized nations where their former dictatorial leaders were removed from power.
As to companies leaving if wages rise too high, the argument makes no sense. Once a company has invested tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars to build a factory in a given area, that is not a trivial investment, and not one to simply walk away from casually.
Also consider that in the nation in question, even as the wages rise, they'll STILL be lower than other areas, it's just that the marginal advantage is not as great as it used to be.
I specifically didn't mention indigenous businesses because that is a natural outgrowth of the process (while it is certainly true that indigenous business can survive, and even thrive in a dictatorial environment, unleashing the power of democracy will, no doubt magnify this effect, and it can be bolstered by any number of loan programs designed with those very businesses in mind--"Life in Africa" is one such program that I have participated in myself, whereby westerners can "underwrite" loans for entreprenureal Africans who want to better themselves. The loans are small, but enough to allow a bootstrap operation to spring up....if successful, the businessman pays off the loan and sees solid improvements. The two loans that I have underwritten were both repaid on time (actually, one was paid ahead of schedule), and they're both doing splendidly!)
Re: Third world labor markets. In case you hadn't heard, there are some extremely high tech toys being produced in third world countries. Everything from computer chips to air frames. True, they get more than their share of garment factories and tennis shoe outlets, but yes, there are a number of decidedly high tech firms opening up plants in surprising areas of the world.
And even for the places that employ strictly unskilled labor....if one employee has ten years experience on a given machine, has learned, over time how to repair it and optomize its performance, then yes....his "skill" (or lack thereof, from your perspective), is more valuable than a guy fresh off the street.
Given the probability of other such plants in the area, if he wants a raise, and company A is unwilling to deal, he can offer his services to company B, C, or D.
The problem you have, is that you are looking at the situation through the lens of how things currently are, and I am looking through the lens of how things might be if the above is carried out, and IN those cases, there would be no monopolistic shenanigans by multinational corporations, because the UN-temporary government would not allow it in the first place, and in the second, they'd not be leaving until the people's democratic government was strong enough to stand on their own (which would include resisting the bullying of large, multinational corporations). If needs be, the UN charter could be expanded to help these newly democratized nations deal on an equal footing WITH multinational corporations who seek to do business there, to make sure they don't get the shaft, and in fact, that's probably a fine addition. Thanks! 
Re: UN resolutions - Most, if not all UN resolutions are pretty useless right now, since they lack any real means of enforcement.
Duncan - ahhh, I see what you're getting at. You're saying that the fat cat rich guys don't have to work, and you're exactly right. But then, since they're already AT the top of the pyramid, they don't have to worry 'bout social mobility either (unless they're just really stupid with their investments).
But for the rank and file....for guys like me....yep....I gotta go out there every day and put my nose to the grindstone, and in fact, I do more than that. I've written three books, and am workin' on a computer game....and it's working....
-=Vel=-
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Lord Merciless
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quote:
Originally posted by DuncanK
I don't think the US could ever lead the world into a future as Vel describes. No nation can. Its got to be an individual, a hero of mankind. It has to be a citizen of the world. I don't know who, but they will emerge. |
After thousands of years and countless failures, you still believe in this Messiah thing?
I would never put my entire trust into a single person, except me of course.
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:25
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quote:
Here in Canada we're about to try a system that ties the financing of political parties to the number of votes, and limiting the amount that can be donated by corporations and wealthy individuals. The figure floating around right now is $1.50 per vote, which will be paid for out of federal revenues. A number of European nations have been doing this for years. I don't know how well it works, but I think it will go a long way towards ridding our system of corporate influence.
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 We have the same here. still, the economical elites do have the politicians. Not as much as in the US, but capital and political power still march hand by hand.
quote:
There aren't any corporations in a socialist society. At least no non-worker owned corporations anyhow
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hehe. that IS cute. how do you place a socialist society there in the first place?
quote:
I don't consider China socialist. My vision of socialism is the worker (not state or capitalist) ownership of the means of production.
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China isn't socialist. IIRC, Mao himself didn't read socialist books, at all. IIRC, his favourite book was some sort of Chinese version to "The Prince", talking about how to use the peasantry to harness power, how to keep the country obeying to you, and waste political opponents.
My knowledge is as dense as vapor on this one, though.  .
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10-02-2003 01:21
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