12-02-2003 22:14									#271
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Why does only hard work count?

What about having a good idea? What about innovation and creativity? What about taking more financial RISK? Those things count every bit as much as hard work, and are rewarded accordingly.

What I *hear* when I hear you saying these things is that you don't want to take those risks yourself, but you sure want the rewards that come with it.

And THAT is bull$hit.

If you want the rewards, take the risks. If you don't, then don't complain about your situation. It's all you.

-=Vel=-

	12-02-2003 22:15									#272
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx So you would sell it to someone who would "exploit" the workers....is that not tacit support of the very thing you say you're against?

What you are expecting of me is ridiculous. Like I said, I have a faimily to take care of.

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx And again, I'm not "stealing" a part of your labor, as I already explained.

Vel,

The act of owning captial does nothing to produce a good. All production comes from labor. That is why we don't need you to own that thing. We can produce even more if you don't own it. The fact that you do own it means that you are able to keep part of the results of our labor. That is very simple, and I'm not willing to let it become more complicated than that.

	12-02-2003 22:17									#273
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quote: Originally posted by Willem If you were a true communist, you would give it away to your workers. You're contradicting yourself.

No, that would make me a true fool.

	12-02-2003 22:18									#274
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Why does only hard work count? What about having a good idea? What about innovation and creativity? What about taking more financial RISK? Those things count every bit as much as hard work, and are rewarded accordingly. What I *hear* when I hear you saying these things is that you don't want to take those risks yourself, but you sure want the rewards that come with it. And THAT is bull$hit. If you want the rewards, take the risks. If you don't, then don't complain about your situation. It's all you. -=Vel=-

You are very elitist. You want people who take risks and by chance win to be part of the elite class. I see no justification for that at all. It's total nonsense.

	12-02-2003 22:21									#275
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quote: Originally posted by Willem Then why is it that the standard of living for the general population has been steadily increasing since the start of the Industrial Revolution?

1) Workers have formed unions which have afforded them greater negotiating power.

2) Imperialist nations have exploited the thrid world creating greater demand for labor.

	12-02-2003 22:22									#276
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Heh....several pages ago, you were the one who said that if you had the half million dollar machine, and the "time was right for revolution" you would give it to the workers....we're just holding you to it....

And as to your statement:

The act of owning captial does nothing to produce a good. All production comes from labor. That is why we don't need you to own that thing. We can produce even more if you don't own it. The fact that you do own it means that you are able to keep part of the results of our labor. That is very simple, and I'm not willing to let it become more complicated than that.

I could not disagree more.

Where do you think the big expensive machine CAME from? Did the god of Communist dogma just shoot it of his arse magically before you?

NO! The machine was built by someone else. It took time and money.

It was very expensive.

I bought it. I PAID FOR IT.

Without it, there would BE no shoe factory.

Why is that so hard to understand?

As to being elitist....if it is elitist to expect people to work for what they get, and if they want more, to work harder, smarter, and better, then yep. I'm an elitist.

-=Vel=-

	12-02-2003 22:27									#277
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quote: Bill Gates is paid 500 times as much as me. Are you trying to tell me that he works 500 times harder than me. It's just the opposite. I work 500 times as hard as he does.

Yeah, I'm sure you work 500x as hard as Gates. Sure.

But even if you did, "hard work" isn't the only thing of value in the world. "Bright ideas" should be rewarded too.

Your assertion that rich people sit on their asses all day is starting to make sense to me. If that was true (ha!), then the only way they could get rich is by exploiting people. Ergo, rich people are exploiting you!

Ya.

Gotta go get lunch, bbl.

-Arrian

	12-02-2003 22:30									#278
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK Most people aren't entrepeneurs. Taken all the entrepeneurs together most of them fail. What is left is an elite class. And just because that select few has succeeded they should be part of a priviledged class. That's barbaric bullshit.

You seem to have the mistaken notion that all entrepeneurs end up owning multinational corporations. The small business owner makes up the largest part of the economy, and is responsible for most of the jobs that are created. I would be considered an entrepeneur since I'm self-employed, even though I work alone, and don't really make a lot of money.

quote: Bill Gates is paid 500 times as much as me. Are you trying to tell me that he works 500 times harder than me. It's just the opposite. I work 500 times as hard as he does.

As Vel has pointed out on many occasions, it's not about the work, it's about the risk. Work is a finite thing, we only have so much time in a day. But the amount of risk can be infinite.

It's also a question of responsibilty. Microsoft has alot of people and families that depend on their paycheck in order to pay their bills and live their lives. He's responsible for all those people in order to ensure that their lives aren't disrupted if the business fails and goes bankrupt. As an employee, you only have to worry about your particular task. Bill Gates has to worry about every single person he has working under him, as well as their families, on top of his responsibilities of actually running the company.

And like I said once before, which you seem to have conveniently ignored, people who set up their own business generally work twice as hard as their employees. They might sell it later and devote themselves to a life of ease and luxury, but while they're building the company, they work their butt off.
They have to, it won't be successful otherwise.

	12-02-2003 22:30									#279
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quote: Originally posted by Iron Chancellor I think this has already been said, but what the hell, it needs to be repeated: Economics is not a zero-sum gain. My gettting richer does not necessarily make you poorer. If economics was zero-sum, the Industrial Revolution would never have been able to happen, or if it did, it would mean that the capitalists got insanely rich and the workers had to work naked and in caves, eventually starving to death. AND THAT, MY FRIEND, DID NOT HAPPEN! You can create wealth, it's not impossible. It happens every day around you. There is no limit on the wealth capable of being created by those with determination and ingenuity.

Example: On day one, everyone has X shoes. This day each person makes one more shoe. At the end of the day, everyone has X + 1 shoe.

All are "wealthier."

The argument that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer in invalid if the poor actually get richer, which they do in capitalist societies.

	12-02-2003 22:31									#280
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Heh....several pages ago, you were the one who said that if you had the half million dollar machine, and the "time was right for revolution" you would give it to the workers....we're just holding you to it....

And I don't recall saying I would give it up before then.

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx And as to your statement: The act of owning captial does nothing to produce a good. All production comes from labor. That is why we don't need you to own that thing. We can produce even more if you don't own it. The fact that you do own it means that you are able to keep part of the results of our labor. That is very simple, and I'm not willing to let it become more complicated than that. I could not disagree more. Where do you think the big expensive machine CAME from? Did the god of Communist dogma just shoot it of his arse magically before you? NO! The machine was built by someone else. It took time and money. It was very expensive. I bought it. I PAID FOR IT. Without it, there would BE no shoe factory. Why is that so hard to understand?

You didn't neccessarily build it. Some one else did. Regardless, it shouldn't be used to exploit people.

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx As to being elitist....if it is elitist to expect people to work for what they get, and if they want more, to work harder, smarter, and better, then yep. I'm an elitist. -=Vel=-

You're not listening to yourself. You want people to draw profit. That's not working for what you get.

	12-02-2003 22:35									#281
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK The act of owning captial does nothing to produce a good. All production comes from labor.

You need capital in order to purchase the machinery, buildings and other infrastucture in order for there to be any production in the first place.

	12-02-2003 22:39									#282
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quote: Originally posted by Willem You need capital in order to purchase the machinery, buildings and other infrastucture in order for there to be any production in the first place.

You don't need to purchase anything, you can just build it. private ownership is totally pointless and contributes nothing.

	12-02-2003 22:41									#283
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK No, that would make me a true fool.

How, by living by your principles? You condemn others yet you don't want to put your own money in your mouth. How hypocritical is that? Your whole philosophy is built on a house of cards, your ideals only apply when it's convenient for you and have no basis in fact. If you truly believed in what you are promoting, then you wouldn't even hesitate to apply them, even hypothetically.

	12-02-2003 22:45									#284
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK You don't need to purchase anything, you can just build it. private ownership is totally pointless and contributes nothing.

Right, you can get people to build things by using the whip. Are you a pop-rush building fan in Civ3?

	12-02-2003 22:46									#285
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Yeah, I'm sure you work 500x as hard as Gates. Sure. But even if you did, "hard work" isn't the only thing of value in the world. "Bright ideas" should be rewarded too. Your assertion that rich people sit on their asses all day is starting to make sense to me. If that was true (ha!), then the only way they could get rich is by exploiting people. Ergo, rich people are exploiting you! Ya. Gotta go get lunch, bbl. -Arrian

I have no idea why you don't believe that rich people don't work as hard as poor people, I sort of think that you might have a lot of money. I think if you tried to support yourself and a family with an unskilled labor job then you would understand that better.

	12-02-2003 22:48									#286
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK 2) Imperialist nations have exploited the thrid world creating greater demand for labor.

Man that is so cliche! Can't you do better than that? The fact remains Duncan, that under capitalism all these years, decades, our standard of living has increased, but the communist system has yet to come up one successful and comparable example.

	12-02-2003 22:48									#287
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless Right, you can get people to build things by using the whip. Are you a pop-rush building fan in Civ3?

Do you understand communism or are you just being ridiculous?

	12-02-2003 22:51									#288
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Private ownership adds nothing.

Duncan, if you believe that, then your mission for today should be to give your car away (take the bus, or some other form of public transportation)

Rent your clothes, or come up with some co-op clothing sharing system with some of your neighbors.

Unlock your doors and put a sign out front of your house, indicating that anyone who wants to can move in with you....since it doesn't really "mean anything" that you're the one paying the mortgage.

'k?

But you won't do any of that, will you?

Why not?

Would that not be living by the principles you believe in?

Question for you, just as an aside:

Let's suppose for a moment that you had a table saw (which you didn't make yourself, but bought from some evil capitalist pig who exploited his poor, poor workers by paying them fifteen bucks an hour, but that's beside the point for this example).

I want to build a house, but don't have a saw. I could buy one myself (from that same, evil, capitalist dog) or I could rent yours for cheaper.

If you take money from me for borrowing the saw, are you exploiting me?

You are profiting from owning the capital, even though you are not doing any work! Would that be somehow "unfair?"

-=Vel=-

	12-02-2003 22:55									#289
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK You don't need to purchase anything, you can just build it. private ownership is totally pointless and contributes nothing.

And who's going to pay the wages of the people that build the machine you need in order to start your own production? Do you think that they should jusst do it for free, tell their families that they can't eat for awhile because you really, really need that machine, but your aren't willing to pay for it. How does that work in your peculiar world?

	12-02-2003 22:56									#290
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Also, your plan pre-supposes that everyone knows how to do everything. This has never been the case.

"they can just build it."

But not if they don't know HOW!

What then? Should they just starve, rather than let someone assume the risk and buy what they cannot make?

You are the one being rediculous, my friend. Calling people elitist for believing that if you want something, you should work for it....::shakes head in amazement::

-=Vel=-

	12-02-2003 22:59									#291
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quote: Originally posted by Willem Man that is so cliche! Can't you do better than that? The fact remains Duncan, that under capitalism all these years, decades, our standard of living has increased, but the communist system has yet to come up one successful and comparable example.

Oh, now you don't believe in Imperialism. You are moving more to the right as we speak

	12-02-2003 23:11									#292
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK I have no idea why you don't believe that rich people don't work as hard as poor people, I sort of think that you might have a lot of money. I think if you tried to support yourself and a family with an unskilled labor job then you would understand that better.

Yeah right, I'm just loaded.

For the last two years and a half years. I've barely been living above the poverty line, even though I've been self-employed. I'm just now reaching the point that I earn as much as someone working for $12/hr CAN. Just subtract 40% for a US equivalent. And yes I've worked at unskilled jobs and tried to get by, and also had periods of being on welfare and unable to find work. That's why I wanted to become self-employed, I can trust myself more than I can trust others for my livelihood.

And though I can't really say that I've personally busted my butt, I've known other people that have set out to run their own businesses. I've seen how hard they work, the sacrifices and compromises that they have to make. You should try working a job at some Mom and Pop business sometime and just watch how much effort they have to put into their business in order to keep it running and successful.

	12-02-2003 23:15									#293
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quote: Originally posted by Willem Yeah right, I'm just loaded. For the last two years and a half years. I've barely been living above the poverty line, even though I've been self-employed. I'm just now reaching the point that I earn as much as someone working for $12/hr CAN. Just subtract 40% for a US equivalent. And yes I've worked at unskilled jobs and tried to get by, and also had periods of being on welfare and unable to find work. That's why I wanted to become self-employed, I can trust myself more than I can trust others for my livelihood. And though I can't really say that I've personally busted my butt, I've known other people that have set out to run their own businesses. I've seen how hard they work, the sacrifices and compromises that they have to make. You should try working a job at some Mom and Pop business sometime and just watch how much effort they have to put into their business in order to keep it running and successful.

And I never said you were rich. As far as I'm concerned you earn everything you have. I'm not really talking about regular people who start up a small business because that's what they want to do. I'm talking about the truly elite class of people who rule America and exploit the working class.

	12-02-2003 23:16									#294
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In order for a third world worker to build an circuit board, for example, he or she needs the board, the circuits, assembly equipment, a supply pipeline in and a pipeline out and of course, know how.

The Imperialist capitalist dog supplies everything but the labor.

Is the Imperialist capitalist dog entitled to nothing for his contribution?

	12-02-2003 23:18									#295
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK Oh, now you don't believe in Imperialism. You are moving more to the right as we speak

There you go again twisting things people say in order to avoid dealing with the issue. Imperialism has never entered into the discussion, not once, nada. If you can't come up with any reasonable arguments that support your view, then you should simply just give up.

	12-02-2003 23:18									#296
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx "they can just build it." But not if they don't know HOW!

In almost all cases I expect. It is the people who built and designed the machines. Bill Gates doesn't design and build his own machines. Even if he did it gives him no right to be a capitalist.

	12-02-2003 23:20									#297
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK I'm not really talking about regular people who start up a small business because that's what they want to do.

BUT THAT'S CAPITALISM! You can't have it both ways Duncan, either the state owns everything, or the people can make the choices on their own.

	12-02-2003 23:20									#298
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quote: Originally posted by Ned In order for a third world worker to build an circuit board, for example, he or she needs the board, the circuits, assembly equipment, a supply pipeline in and a pipeline out and of course, know how. The Imperialist capitalist dog supplies everything but the labor. Is the Imperialist capitalist dog entitled to nothing for his contribution?

The workers in the Imperialist nation certainly desreve something, but not a greater share.

	12-02-2003 23:23									#299
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See how it goes Ned? We're back to the 10k investment thing.

The evil capitalists supply *everything* All the pieces, AND a place to put them together, and all they ask is that the laborers actually put the pieces they're given together.

But the split has to be fifty fifty or it's not "fair."



-=Vel=-

	12-02-2003 23:23									#300
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quote: Originally posted by Willem BUT THAT'S CAPITALISM! You can't have it both ways Duncan, either the state owns everything, or the people can make the choices on their own.

You generalize entirely too much. We are not a bunch of small business owners who simply work for ourselves. You maybe, but the bulk of us aren't. Furthermore, its a fanatasy to picture capitalism in that way. You're talking precommercial revolution. Capitalism will never go back to those early stages.

errr.. pre-industrial revolution i think