11-02-2003 04:39									#61
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Now let's go back to the Afghan "success"... and few articles from different sides

Russian:
http://english.pravda.ru/main/2003/02/10/43176.html

quote: Russian Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov considers the terrorist movement Taliban may possibly return to power in Afghanistan. “There are no conditions for prevention of the Taliban new coming to power,” – he said Saturday in his speech at the international conference on terrorism in Munich. “So far the Khamid Karzai administration does not possess necessary influence in provinces. New terrorist attempts at the Afghan leadership are being committed, while the terrorists are being trained abroad,” – Ivanov said. He considers to be necessary to make “coordinated efforts, including at the international level, to oppose Islamic extremism of any shape.” Sergei Ivanov is especially concerned “with the situation in the neighbouring north-west province of Pakistan, where the Taliban positions are very strong.” After Americans practically leave Afghanistan to the mercy of fate and focused on Iraq, the Taliban became more active. Within recent two weeks, 17 attacks against UN missions and international charity organizations were registered. For example, January 26, some unknown persons attacked a column of food cars in the province of Nangarkhar: two people were killed and four injured. The same day, bomb exploded in UN mission in Mazar-i-Sharif. January 27, in the province of Farah, 6 Afghan specialists from UN Agency of Mine Clearing were beaten unmercifully. January 29, a hand-made explosive device was thrown to the mission of the non-governmental organization Action against Hunger in Kandaghar. January 30, some armed persons captured two World Food Programme workers in Kabul outskirts, who happily were later released. All the incidents show worsening of the security situation in the country and stirring up of the Mojahedeen, the Taliban supporters, and Al-Qaida militants.

check this out

http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/world/a...1732130,00.html

quote: I think they're hiding in little nooks," said Capt. Rob Shaw of the 82nd Airborne Division. American soldiers "would clear a cave, announce it good and blow it, and then the next day see a guy coming out of the same cave."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...7-2003Feb8.html

quote: Rising Violence Hurts Afghanistan Aid Work ----- Such attacks are becoming increasingly common in southern Afghanistan, particularly here in Kandahar, the birthplace of the Taliban. In the past several weeks, a car belonging to an aid group was riddled with 16 bullets; two foreign land-mine removal specialists were slightly injured when their car hit a booby-trapped mine; Afghan workers with aid groups have been tied up and robbed; a grenade was thrown at an Afghan relief organization's car; and leaflets have been found urging locals to attack foreigners and Afghans who work with them. In neighboring Helmand province today, local officials told the Reuters news agency that unidentified gunmen attacked a security post on Friday, killing five Afghan soldiers and kidnapping two others. ----- He and others said the security problems do not all stem from Islamic militancy. Banditry and highway robberies have increased, and foreign workers with relatively fancy cars and usually limited security make attractive targets. The threat of bandits is so great that Hagiwara said he couldn't bring money to Kandahar to pay his many Afghan subcontractors, but rather required them to travel 300 miles north to Kabul, the capital, to pick up their funds. One group now providing relief and reconstruction services that says it definitely won't be leaving soon is the U.S. military, which is planning to bring more civil affairs officers into the Kandahar area within weeks. The military's plan is controversial among relief groups, which have expressed fear that the line between humanitarian and military work is being dangerously blurred. But the officers' presence would ensure that some rehabilitation of the area continues.

a bit more UK

http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentS...d=1042491642384

quote: Unfinished business in AfghanistanBy Isobel Coleman ----- Afghanistan remains unnervingly fragile. Basic security and stability have still not been achieved. Expansion of the UN's 4,800-strong International Security Assistance Force is a dead issue. Instead, the US remains committed to training a professional, multi-ethnic Afghan National Army. But that will take years. After months of boot camp, only one company of 50 men has been deployed, with a few hundred more soldiers in the pipeline. Meanwhile, outside Kabul, regional warlords and bandits, often in cahoots, prevail. Aid agencies are reluctant to expand their services beyond a few urban centres. Without security there is no hope for the economy, and without a stable economy there is little hope for the people. ----- [q] and there is more.... like http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2003Jan28.html [q]BAGRAM AIR BASE, Afghanistan, Jan. 28 -- U.S. and allied forces, including B-1 bombers and AC-130 gunships, surrounded and pummeled a group of about 80 Afghan guerrillas on a mountainside in southeastern Afghanistan, killing at least 18 in the largest battle in the country since spring, military officials said today....

with a comment later

I found

quote: Apparently, in this age of high-tech warfare, the concept of a blocking force has been forgotten. The Jan. 29 front-page article "Allies Rout Rebels in Afghanistan" has our military using 350 troops with B-1 bombers, F-16s and AC-130s to launch 19 J-DAMS 2,000-pound bombs and two 500-pound GBU bombs and thousands of rounds of lesser firepower. A few hundred thousand pounds of jet fuel were burned, too -- all to kill some 18 rebels. That's one 2,000-pound bomb per kill, with all the other munitions for show. Thank goodness we aren't going up against China. How many more of these missions can we afford?

not so easy as it seems... but we don't seem to hear much anyway as Afghanistan is not a hot issue anymore. There is a good part too and that is that US and the rest of the world want to build a local army that should become the government force and bring order and stability, but are they putting enough efforts in that direction?

	11-02-2003 04:59									#62
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why does this thread show Ming as a last poster is there something wrong with the server clock again?


----

ok, seems to have corected now.

	11-02-2003 07:57									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Again... I have no problem with that. He is indeed welcome to his opinion. But to use him as a source of credible reporting is another thing.

So anyone who is even mildly critical of the United States is not a credible source?

	11-02-2003 08:12									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse One major loss of US life and where will we be?

Hey Upskirting King,

US has already had loss of life there.

We've been hearing crap articles like this since the beginning.

Glad to see you back in semi-old form, though. Were you inspired by the performance of Jordan at the All Star Game? Not that you'd ever be in his level, though you still have that, "I used to be good but now I suck thing" about you.

You got me to post though.

4/10

	11-02-2003 08:13									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Try being a rebel there, and see how long you last!

Chris, you miss the point completely.

Sure, a single rebel may not last long, but what about an entire country bent on kicking the US army out? Unless the US is prepared to carry out a genocide operation, you will lose. Just like in Vietnam.

	11-02-2003 08:16									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Hey Upskirting King, US has already had loss of life there. We've been hearing crap articles like this since the beginning. Glad to see you back in semi-old form, though. Were you inspired by the performance of Jordan at the All Star Game? Not that you'd ever be in his level, though you still have that, "I used to be good but now I suck thing" about you. You got me to post though. 4/10

I dunno Ted, they never quite seem to hit the mark.

I think its because you like me too much.

A few of you brothers across the Pacific try and flame my arse and it always comes across as kind of affectionate.

You need to work on that

I see the situation in Afghanistan as something lamentable not something to gloat or troll about.

And I don't oppose US military intervention. I don't think allegedly anti-American Mr Fisk does either, who was the first Western reporter into Kabul.

	11-02-2003 08:16									#67
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Not another Vietnam? Lets dust off the ol' checklist and have a look at the similarities with the war in Afghanistan and the war in Vietnam

1. Ruthless extremist group fighting guerilla style?

Check!

2. Inhospital terrain, not well suited for mechanized warfare?

Check!

3. Unpopular 'democratic' government in said country?

Check!

4. A war to stop the spread of ideology and based on fear?

Check!

5. A war started without a declaration of war by the US congrees?

Check!

Well, whadaya know? I'll bet the US will pull out in a coupla years when they fail to adopt to the guerrilla tactics and the casualties become too much for the American public (so much for the New Army)

	11-02-2003 08:18									#68
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UR - Yeah, the Soviets 'occupied' the country within a matter of days. Getting OUT is the hard part.

	11-02-2003 08:46									#69
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Mistakes the British and Soviets made was pissing off the locals.

Soviets came in and pretty much leveled the place. The US is smart and is supports local factions as we need to.

Of course I'm sure the next troll thread will be about US support of ruthless warlords.

Can't have it both ways people.

	11-02-2003 08:54									#70
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We could have supported the northern alliance and not gone in with troops. Give a bounty for each taliban killed and a larger one for each one captured. and a bounty for turning over weapons. Money talks.

	11-02-2003 08:55									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Mistakes the British and Soviets made was pissing off the locals. Soviets came in and pretty much leveled the place. The US is smart and is supports local factions as we need to.

You think the Brits and Russians didn't do that?

	11-02-2003 08:56									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Mistakes the British and Soviets made was pissing off the locals. Soviets came in and pretty much leveled the place. The US is smart and is supports local factions as we need to. Of course I'm sure the next troll thread will be about US support of ruthless warlords. Can't have it both ways people.

Well Ted, the US seems to be pissing off people too. IIRC, the Afghans view all foreign forces as mortal enemies. That's what united them against the Brits and the Soviets.

	11-02-2003 08:59									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse You think the Brits and Russians didn't do that?

That's EXACTLY what I'm saying.

I've read both accounts extensivley.

The Brits ****ed up by acting like a bunch of drunk sailors. (They underestimated their opponents as well).

The Russians went in and leveled the place and tried to run things their own way.

	11-02-2003 09:01									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Well Ted, the US seems to be pissing off people too. IIRC, the Afghans view all foreign forces as mortal enemies. That's what united them against the Brits and the Soviets.

I wouldn't say that is universal in Afghanistan.

Secondly, alot of them are on Uncle Sam's payroll.


"It ain't a black thing, and it's ain't a white thing either. IT'S A *GREEN* THING"

	11-02-2003 09:19									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker The Brits ****ed up by acting like a bunch of drunk sailors. (They underestimated their opponents as well). The Russians went in and leveled the place and tried to run things their own way.

*shakes head*

Both used local allies, just like you are doing.

	11-02-2003 09:22									#76
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Yes, and both used bullets too, so that dooms them to failure

It's all about scale and visibility silly.

	11-02-2003 09:26									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker I wouldn't say that is universal in Afghanistan. Secondly, alot of them are on Uncle Sam's payroll. "It ain't a black thing, and it's ain't a white thing either. IT'S A *GREEN* THING"

The question is then, why is the situation in Afghanistan largely out of US's control?

	11-02-2003 09:27									#78
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Its all about we can never win without mass extermination. So lets get the (bleep) out before we lose too many soldiers.

	11-02-2003 09:29									#79
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First of all it's not the US intention to control the whole place and secondly there are other peacekeepers there besides the USA and thirdly it's not an overnight thing.

USA is in for the long haul, nobody expects things to be Japan in 1 year.

	11-02-2003 09:38									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Can you imagine the United States making a 5 - 10 year commitment to Afghanistan? Wait a minute, isn't that roughly the commitment they made in Vietnam? Do I also remember the "super patriots" here laughing when Afghanistan was compared to Vietnam..... Where are they now? MTG? Chris62? Sprayber? Zkribbler? Nowhere to be seen............... Ming left to carry the can.............

Frankly Alexander I'm hurt that you didn't include me in your list of "Super Patriots". I'll gladly stand by the predictive quality of my posts, especially in contrast to those of the "Super Chickens".

I saw a list of Fisk articles linked from the EU website, and took a few minutes to peruse it. Ming's right, the only types of article there were anti-American and anti-Israeli, out of what looked to be 50 articles. The man is on a mission, and it isn't dedication to the unvarnished truth.

	11-02-2003 09:45									#81
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Heck, Japan wasn't Japan in one year.

UR: no.

	11-02-2003 10:01									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Frankly Alexander I'm hurt that you didn't include me in your list of "Super Patriots".

Sorry - I'll try and do better next time.

quote: I saw a list of Fisk articles linked from the EU website, and took a few minutes to peruse it. Ming's right, the only types of article there were anti-American and anti-Israeli, out of what looked to be 50 articles. The man is on a mission, and it isn't dedication to the unvarnished truth.

And yet none of you, from Ming down, has pointed out where specifically the anti-American bias is in the article I posted

I'm getting very close to CAPS LOCK here boys

	11-02-2003 10:12									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse And yet none of you, from Ming down, has pointed out where specifically the anti-American bias is in the article I posted

The article you quoted didn't include any information that I can prove was incorrect. It may all be correct for all I know, I don't have time to research every article written by Fisk, or even every one put up on this site. But my tendency is to take Fisk's opinions with a grain of salt. He may not misstate the facts (then again he might), but I think he does tend to search for facts that support his opinions. He is too much a commentator for me to take his reportage as balanced analysis. My brother in law is heading over to Afghanistan soon, so I'll ask him what's going on if he manages to survive the bloodbath.

	11-02-2003 10:25									#84
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I hope he's okay.

	11-02-2003 10:35									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse I hope he's okay.

Thanks. He is either right as rain or insane, depending on how you view volunteering. He's a mortarman, so he'll probably get into the sh!t if there are any offensive operations in his region. We're still unsure exactly where he is going to be.

	11-02-2003 10:37									#86
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Those guys have to get up close - again good luck to him and your sister.

	11-02-2003 10:45									#87
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Fisk has a way of getting conservatives in on this topic riled up- after all, not many reporters have stars (John Malkovich in this case) threaten to kill them. Is Fisk biased? Yes. Is his bias based on ignorance, or experience? The man begun his career in Lebanon, not the place to become a US and Israel cheerleader, now is it?

MOst US columnists are deeply anti-Saddam biased. I have heard few complaints about his, since so many people share said bias here and take it as self-evident. I guess its not a bias if its 'true', now is it boys?

Calling Fisk biased is fine, but as of yet, none of you caling him biased have been able, or willing, to answer not his opinions, but the statements he put as fact. Do you assume that they are correct then?

Calling someone biased is easy. Dealing with ones own, hard, and taking on statements made as fact when you have nothing to disprove them even harder. I agree with Fisk on many thing_ I admit my bias. I also have no facts of my own, or sources of my own, that can 'disprove' those statements he made as fact. I am left then to think, that bias and all, he is more correct about the current situation in Afghanistan than all of those simply saying: "He's biased, lalalalalalalala...."

Nice new topic AH.

	11-02-2003 10:55									#88
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Thanks but its really becoming childsplay around here.

The simple truth is they cannot answer the points Fisk raises and this is what pisses off the Hawks so much.

	11-02-2003 13:59									#89
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Ming:

Why do you expect him to write positively about US foreign policy? By that standard, 99+ % of US journalists have an anti-european bias.

Oh wait, maybe they have...

	11-02-2003 15:34									#90
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well I'm so glad you find my ideas stupid.

Maybe you should call the afghans stupid then. Because that is what they are doing. They know where the money is. They go where the money is. It's all about supply and demand. If americans didn't crave drugs, there would be no reason to supply them.

So yes they can make more money growing poppies.

so which would you prefer? To have afghans starve to death trying to grow crops? Or would you prefer they prosper growing poppies.

Sure it's illegal in the U.S. But I'm sure they have no laws against it. So it's not like it's against the laws.

I'm a libertarian. And I don't believe drugs should be a concern of the federal goverment. If you don't like it, **** off. That is my opinion.

The best thing for afghanistan is to get money coming in as fast as possible. If that means drugs, then so be it.