10-02-2003 15:18									#1
	Pax Americana Falling apart in Afghanistan: Is it too soon to say we told you so? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

For those who don't know, Robert Fisk is one of the most distinguished Western Correspondents in the Middle East.

quote: Don't mention the war in Afghanistan The near collapse of peace in this savage land is a narrative erased from the mind of Americans By Robert Fisk - 05 February 2003 http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=375608 There's one sure bet about the statement to be made to the UN Security Council today by the US Secretary of State, Colin Powell – or by General Colin Powell as he has now been mysteriously reassigned by the American press: he won't be talking about Afghanistan. For since the Afghan war is the "successful" role model for America's forthcoming imperial adventure across the Middle East, the near-collapse of peace in this savage land and the steady erosion of US forces in Afghanistan – the nightly attacks on American and other international troops, the anarchy in the cities outside Kabul, the warlordism and drug trafficking and steadily increasing toll of murders – are unmentionables, a narrative constantly erased from the consciousness of Americans who are now sending their young men and women by the tens of thousands to stage another "success" story. This article is written in President George Bush's home state of Texas, where the flags fly at half-staff for the Columbia crew, where the dispatch to the Middle East of further troops of the 108th Air Defence Artillery Brigade from Fort Bliss and the imminent deployment from Holloman Air Force Base in neighbouring New Mexico of undisclosed numbers of F-117 Nighthawk stealth bombers earned a mere 78-word down-page inside "nib" report in the local Austin newspaper. Only in New York and Washington do the neo-conservative pundits suggest – obscenely – that the death of the Columbia crew may well have heightened America's resolve and "unity" to support the Bush adventure in Iraq. A few months ago, we would still have been asked to believe that the post-war "success" in Afghanistan augured well for the post-war success in Iraq. So let's break through the curtain for a while and peer into the fastness of the land that both President Bush and Prime Minister Blair promised not to forget. Hands up those who know that al-Qa'ida has a radio station operating inside Afghanistan which calls for a holy war against America? It's true. Hands up again anyone who can guess how many of the daily weapons caches discovered by US troops in the country have been brought into Afghanistan since America's "successful" war? Answer: up to 25 per cent. Have any US troops retreated from their positions along the Afghan-Pakistan border? None, you may say. And you would be wrong. At least five positions, according to Pakistani sources on the other side of the frontier, only one of which has been admitted by US forces. On 11 December, US troops abandoned their military outpost at Lwara after nightly rocket attacks which destroyed several American military vehicles. Their Afghan allies were driven out only days later and al-Qa'ida fighters then stormed the US compound and burnt it to the ground. It's a sign of just how seriously America's mission in Afghanistan is collapsing that the majestically conservative Wall Street Journal – normally a beacon of imperial and Israeli policy in the Middle East and South-west Asia – has devoted a long and intriguing article to the American retreat, though of course that's not what the paper calls it. "Soldiers still confront an invisible enemy,'' is the title of Marc Kaufman's first-class investigation, a headline almost identical to one which appeared over a Fisk story a year or so after Russia's invasion of Afghanistan in 1979-80. The soldiers in my dispatch, of course, were Russian. Indeed, just as I recall the Soviet officer who told us all at Bagram air base that the "mujahedin terrorism remnants" were all that was left of the West's conspiracy against peace-loving (and Communist) Afghans, so I observed the American spokesmen – yes, at the very same Bagram air base – who today cheerfully assert that al-Qa'ida "remnants" are all that are left of Bin Laden's legions. Training camps have been set up inside Afghanistan again, not – as the Americans think – by the recalcitrant forces of Gulbuddin Hekmatyar's anti-American Afghans, but by Arabs. The latest battle between US forces and enemy "remnants" near Spin Boldak in Kandahar provinceinvolved further Arab fighters, as my colleague Phil Reeves reported. Hekmatyar's Hezb-i-Islami forces have been "forging ties" with al-Qa'ida and the Taliban; which is exactly what the mujahedin "terrorist remnants" did among themselves in the winter of 1980, a year after the Soviet invasion. An American killed by a newly placed landmine in Khost; 16 civilians blown up by another newly placed mine outside Kandahar; grenades tossed at Americans or international troops in Kabul; further reports of rape and female classroom burnings in the north of Afghanistan – all these events are now acquiring the stale status of yesterday's war. So be sure that Colin Powell will not be boasting to the Security Council today of America's success in the intelligence war in Afghanistan. It's one thing to claim that satellite pictures show chemicals being transported around Iraq, or that telephone intercepts prove Iraqi scientists are still at their dirty work; quite another to explain how all the "communications chatter" intercepts which the US supposedly picked up in Afghanistan proved nothing. As far as Afghanistan is concerned, you can quote Basil Fawlty: "Whatever you do, don't mention the war.''

I seem to recall that some of us were saying on this forum that the Americans would go in and then walk away and the status quo ante would return. Of course the forum blowhard hawks dismissed that assessment out of hand. I guess they've stopped following events in Afghanistan now and this thread will probably sink like a stone.

	10-02-2003 15:33									#2
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They had a pretty extensive article about this in the Post a week ago or so. And it wasn't an opinion piece, like the one you referenced.

Some limited fighting along the border doesn't surprise me or concern me overmuch, considering what was happening before. It is well too soon to say you told us so.

	10-02-2003 15:37									#3
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One major loss of US life and where will we be?

	10-02-2003 15:40									#4
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Could you rephrase your question? Who, what, where, why?

	10-02-2003 15:41									#5
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We told you so.

Actually, we knew this would happen. Here they come, there they go. Meanwhile, large poppy fields are silently growing all over the country. Again.

	10-02-2003 15:43									#6
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The inertia of the place suggests we will fail, eventually, but it won't be for lack of trying. So we have a choice -- do we do what we can for these people, keeping our promise to them despite the near impossibility of the task, or do we abandon them to their fate, returning to our comforts as they self-immolate?

	10-02-2003 15:45									#7
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Another interesting article by Robert Fisk - this one about Colin Powell's speech at the UN Security Council.

quote: You wanted to believe him – but it was like something out of Beckett By Robert Fisk - 06th February 2003 Sources, foreign intelligence sources, "our sources," defectors, sources, sources, sources. Colin Powell's terror talk to the United Nations Security Council yesterday sounded like one of those government-inspired reports on the front page of The New York Times – where it will most certainly be treated with due reverence in this morning's edition. It was a bit like heating up old soup. Haven't we heard most of this stuff before? Should one trust the man? General Powell, I mean, not Saddam. Certainly we don't trust Saddam but Secretary of State Powell's presentation was a mixture of awesomely funny recordings of Iraqi Republican Guard telephone intercepts à la Samuel Beckett that just might have been some terrifying little proof that Saddam really is conning the UN inspectors again, and some ancient material on the Monster of Baghdad's all too well known record of beastliness. I am still waiting to hear the Arabic for the State Department's translation of "Okay Buddy" – "Consider it done, Sir" – this from the Republican Guard's "Captain Ibrahim", for heaven's sake – and some dinky illustrations of mobile bio-labs whose lorries and railway trucks were in such perfect condition that they suggested the Pentagon didn't have much idea of the dilapidated state of Saddam's army. It was when we went back to Halabja and human rights abuses and all Saddam's old sins, as recorded by the discredited Unscom team, that we started eating the old soup again. Jack Straw may have thought all this "the most powerful and authoritative case" but when we were forced to listen to Iraq's officer corps communicating by phone – "yeah", "yeah", "yeah?", "yeah..." – it was impossible not to ask oneself if Colin Powell had really considered the effect this would have on the outside world. From time to time, the words "Iraq: Failing To Disarm – Denial and Deception" appeared on the giant video screen behind General Powell. Was this a CNN logo, some of us wondered? But no, it was CNN's sister channel, the US Department of State. Because Colin Powell is supposed to be the good cop to the Bush-Rumsfeld bad cop routine, one wanted to believe him. The Iraqi officer's telephoned order to his subordinate – "remove 'nerve agents' whenever it comes up in the wireless instructions" – looked as if the Americans had indeed spotted a nasty new little line in Iraqi deception. But a dramatic picture of a pilotless Iraqi aircraft capable of spraying poison chemicals turned out to be the imaginative work of a Pentagon artist. And when General Powell started blathering on about "decades'' of contact between Saddam and al-Qa'ida, things went wrong for the Secretary of State. Al-Qa'ida only came into existence five years ago, since Bin Laden – "decades" ago – was working against the Russians for the CIA, whose present day director was sitting grave-faced behind General Powell. And Colin Powell's new version of his President's State of the Union lie – that the "scientists" interviewed by UN inspectors had been Iraqi intelligence agents in disguise – was singularly unimpressive. The UN talked to scientists, the new version went, but they were posing for the real nuclear and bio boys whom the UN wanted to talk to. General Powell said America was sharing its information with the UN inspectors but it was clear yesterday that much of what he had to say about alleged new weapons development – the decontamination truck at the Taji chemical munitions factory, for example, the "cleaning" of the Ibn al-Haythem ballistic missile factory on 25 November – had not been given to the UN at the time. Why wasn't this intelligence information given to the inspectors months ago? Didn't General Powell's beloved UN resolution 1441 demand that all such intelligence information should be given to Hans Blix and his lads immediately? Were the Americans, perhaps, not being "pro-active" enough? The worst moment came when General Powell started talking about anthrax and the 2001 anthrax attacks in Washington and New York, pathetically holding up a teaspoon of the imaginary spores and – while not precisely saying so – fraudulently suggesting a connection between Saddam Hussein and the 2001 anthrax scare. When the Secretary of State held up Iraq's support for the Palestinian Hamas organisation, which has an office in Baghdad, as proof of Saddam's support for "terror'' – there was, of course, no mention of America's support for Israel and its occupation of Palestinian land – the whole theatre began to collapse. There are Hamas offices in Beirut, Damascus and Iran. Is the 82nd Airborne supposed to grind on to Lebanon, Syria and Iran? There was an almost macabre opening to the play when General Powell arrived at the Security Council, cheek-kissing the delegates and winding his great arms around them. Jack Straw fairly bounded up for his big American hug. Indeed, there were moments when you might have thought that the whole chamber, with its toothy smiles and constant handshakes, contained a room full of men celebrating peace rather than war. Alas, not so. These elegantly dressed statesmen were constructing the framework that would allow them to kill quite a lot of people, the monstrous Saddam perhaps, with his cronies, but a considerable number of innocents as well. One recalled, of course, the same room four decades ago when General Powell's predecessor Adlai Stevenson showed photos of the ships carrying Soviet missiles to Cuba. Alas, today's pictures carried no such authority. And Colin Powell is no Adlai Stevenson.

	10-02-2003 15:47									#8
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I think I now understand where this Fisk fellow is coming from.

	10-02-2003 15:48									#9
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I loved the reference the Bagram airport. This was the main Soviet base. The Sovs also said the threat was insignificant till the Afghans surrounded the base and shelled it every night. I wonder how long before Bagram is attacked again this time......

	10-02-2003 16:06									#10
	Re: Pax Americana Falling apart in Afghanistan: Is it too soon to say we told you so? Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Robert Fisk is one of the most distinguished Western Correspondents in the Middle East.

Correspondent... gee, you make him sound like a factual reporter vs just another opinionated person with an ax to grind, which he is. But I guess you would consider him "distinguished" if you agree with his point of view. But that's all it is... a very biased point of view.
If you agree with him... fine... I have no problem with that. But please remember that he doesn't present all the facts... just the ones that support his positions, while ignoring anything that might prove his position wrong

	10-02-2003 16:08									#11
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk The inertia of the place suggests we will fail, eventually, but it won't be for lack of trying.

Perhaps, then, the US must give it a bigger push?

	10-02-2003 16:09									#12
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Sorry Ming but I wouldn't expect you to know who Robert Fisk is.

He's not a sportswriter for a start.......

And can people keep Iraq material off this thread please? We don't want to give Ming an excuse the censor this thread too

	10-02-2003 16:17									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Sorry Ming but I wouldn't expect you to know who Robert Fisk is. He's not a sportswriter for a start.......

Already resorting to personal insults I see... boy, your position must be really weak for you to stoop that low so soon.

Stick to the facts... if you can. But I guess that would make for a less entertaining thread...

	10-02-2003 16:24									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Already resorting to personal insults I see... boy, your position must be really weak for you to stoop that low so soon. Stick to the facts... if you can. But I guess that would make for a less entertaining thread...

Excuse me? You made a personal attack on Fisk and I responded to your ad homenim attack with what it deserved. Play the ball and not the man Ming. You don't like it, neither would he.

And You did not address one fact he raised. So, tell us Ming, what you know about Afghanistan?

Its in Asia if that helps.....

	10-02-2003 16:30									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Excuse me? You made a personal attack on Fisk and I responded to your ad homenim attack with what it deserved. Play the ball and not the man Ming. You don't like it, neither would he.

I attacked the credibility of your source... not you.
You attacked me...

I know who he is... I've read a lot of his stuff. And his position on any issues in the Middle East make it very clear where his biases are. And that's a opinion... not an attack. I'm welcome to my opinion, just as Fisk is welcome to his.

You also presented no "facts"... you just cut and paste an opinion by somebody else... adding nothing.

	10-02-2003 16:37									#16
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How is he biased?

	10-02-2003 16:37									#17
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I defer to experts. And I think the facts he raises are striking.

If people like you read Fisk there might be hope yet for your benighted country.

And name one journalist without biases? Even distinguished ones have them.

	10-02-2003 16:42									#18
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His views have always been Pro-Palestinian and Anti American. He has never written a single piece that I have seen that hasn't been an attack on either.

Again... I have no problem with that. He is indeed welcome to his opinion. But to use him as a source of credible reporting is another thing.

I could simply cut and paste some rabid pro american columnist and present it as fact... But I don't think that's right either... because it would also be very biased and not totally factual because it would only be presenting one side of the argument

	10-02-2003 16:45									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse I defer to experts. And I think the facts he raises are striking. If people like you read Fisk there might be hope yet for your benighted country.

I have read a lot of Fisk, as I stated in my earlier post. But what the heck, you never seem to let the truth get in the way of one of your trolls...

	10-02-2003 16:46									#20
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Well let's hear you debunk the facts he presents instead of continuing to attack him personally?

Or would you rather just call him a communist and be done with thinking about his point of view

	10-02-2003 16:54									#21
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The "facts" are quite simple.

1 The opium poppies are growing again after the Taleban virtually shut down the production.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2722807.stm

2 The Afghan government has virtually no control outside Kabul.

3 The country is occupied by foreign troops. The locals (and others) are starting to use them for target practice.

If this all sounds like nothing much has changed from 20 years ago there might be a reason for that.

I do believe that the situation in Afghanistan could be turned around but it requires a 5 to 10 year commitment that seems to be being lost in the rush to Iraq.

Last edited by CerberusIV on 10-02-2003 at 17:14

	10-02-2003 16:59									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Ming His views have always been Pro-Palestinian and Anti American. He has never written a single piece that I have seen that hasn't been an attack on either.

You answer with another bias. Again, how is he biased in the quoted articles?

	10-02-2003 16:59									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Well let's hear you debunk the facts he presents instead of continuing to attack him personally?

I'm just stating a simple FACT that his "writings" have ALWAYS been Pro-Palestinian and Anti American. Just stating what his biases are.
That is not an attack... just reality.

And, did I ever say that his facts were in error? He is a very good writer, and he uses the facts to support his position... while ignorning whatever doesn't support his position. As you say... most writers do do it. And that is exactly what you are doing as well. You have posted a thread based soley on his piece, because it supports your position on this subject.

I could cut and paste a bunch of Pro American pieces that would show how wrong his "conclusions" are, but you would do the same that I did and just say they were American Mouthpieces not worthy of note.

I would argue that it is still to early to come to any conclusions in this matter. But if you want to say I told you so... go ahead. There is a chance you will proven wrong later. The situation over there isn't over yet... a lot will and can still happen.

And last... you ask me to debunk his facts... I could ask you to Prove his facts... because again, you just cut and paste, and didn't add anything

	10-02-2003 17:00									#24
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Can you imagine the United States making a 5 - 10 year commitment to Afghanistan? Wait a minute, isn't that roughly the commitment they made in Vietnam?

Do I also remember the "super patriots" here laughing when Afghanistan was compared to Vietnam.....

Where are they now? MTG? Chris62? Sprayber? Zkribbler?

Nowhere to be seen...............

Ming left to carry the can.............

	10-02-2003 17:07									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Ming left to carry the can.............

Again... please show where I have done so.

All I've done is say that the source for you whole argument is biased... and that's it's too early to make a call here.

Your position is... it's a done deal, and it's time to say I told you so.

While I'm sure some of the super patriots may appear shortly as American wakes up to argue or trade insult with you... I haven't done so and I won't.

I don't like what I see going on over their either. But unlike you, I will reserve judgement for the future. Nobody ever stated that the problem could be solved overnight. The country was disaster before the bombings, and only got worse due to the war. This is a long term project, and it is too early to say either way what the outcome will be.

	10-02-2003 17:12									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Your position is... it's a done deal, and it's time to say I told you so.

That's not my position. I'm open minded about which way things will go.

	10-02-2003 17:17									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse That's not my position. I'm open minded about which way things will go.

Ohh... OK... Then I guess we "agree" on this subject

	10-02-2003 17:20									#28
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Now admit it Ming - you read Fisk because you are a closet liberal

	10-02-2003 17:22									#29
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	10-02-2003 17:32									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Now admit it Ming - you read Fisk because you are a closet liberal

Hardly... while I do lean to the liberal side on social issues... NOBODY would call me a liberal

But seriously, I do read Fisk. But I read him so that I can get a more balanced view of the issues. If I were only to read pro american stuff, my working knowledge would be very limited. I always like to read stuff from many different perspectives. It helps me make better decisions and have more well rounded opinions of world topics.